The Unlikely Plan That Launched Down North Pizza

Introduction:

So here was Muhammad Abdul-Hadi’s idea for a pizza joint: First, buy a building in one of the most troubled neighborhoods in one of the poorest big cities in the country. Open a restaurant despite having no experience in the food industry and do it during the pandemic when many restaurants are failing. And hire only people who, like Abdul-Hadi, are convicted felons. If that business plan sounds a little dicey to you, rest assured you would not be the first to suggest that to Abdul-Hadi. But he did it anyway. He built out the restaurant, and it opened in 2020 to lines that required people to wait as long as three hours for their pizza—thanks in part to a marketing plan that created excitement and scarcity by “dropping” pizzas the way some people “drop” special-edition sneakers. And now, Down North Pizza, which has been featured on best-of lists in national publications like Bon Appetit and The New York Times, is looking to expand. A special, year-end bonus episode.

— Loren Feldman

Guests:

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi is founder and owner of Down North Pizza.

Producer:

Jess Thoubboron is founder of Blank Word.

Full Episode Transcript:

Loren Feldman:
Welcome, Muhammad. It’s great to have you here. Muhammad, we all know, the failure rates for businesses are quite high. Building a business is not an easy thing to do. But you’ve managed not only to build a successful business, but to do it while addressing an important social mission. That’s no small feat, and I’m going to ask you about that. But first, tell me about yourself. Did you grow up in Philly?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Yes. I’m a Philly native, born and raised. I bleed green. You know, for those who know what that means. [Laughter]

Loren Feldman:
It means you’re an Eagles fan.

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Yes.

Loren Feldman:
For those who don’t know Philadelphia, what part of town did you grow up in? And what kind of neighborhood is it?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
I grew up in West Philadelphia. The historic 52nd Street is where I grew up and where I’m from, all up and down that historic strip of commercial corridor in West Philly.

Loren Feldman:
Why is it historic?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
There’s a lot of history for the commercial corridor with Black entrepreneurs in that particular area. So 52nd Street was the area that you can walk up and down—as we call it, The Strip—and you just see Black entrepreneurship, Black businesses, immigrant businesses. Pretty affluent, within that particular strip of 52nd Street.

Loren Feldman:
Was that something that made an impact on you? Did some of the people you saw there become role models for you?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
It definitely did something to me, because I saw a lot of people who look like me who were able to do something positive within the community. You had different types of businesses on that strip, and you also had people playing chess. You had people doing a lot of positive things that you can see. It definitely had an impact on myself. And my father used to take me up and down that strip. He was friends with a lot of the individuals who had businesses there. So it definitely exposed me to a lot.

Loren Feldman:
How did you first get interested in entrepreneurship?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
I first got interested in entrepreneurship, because of, honestly, my brother. I have an older brother, who has only ever been an entrepreneur for as long as I can think. And he, growing up in Philly, went to Howard University in the ’80s, started printing on T-shirts, doing his thing.

I remember seeing that, and I remember him hiring me over the summers, because I used to actually go down to D.C. and live with him. And I used to work folding shirts, when I was about 7, 8, 9, 10. I would get paid. It wasn’t what I would consider a livable wage back then when I was eight, but yeah, I was getting paid. I was pulling a lot of shirts, and I remember receiving the check for about $5 to $10.

Loren Feldman:
That’s a good job for a 7- or 8-year-old.

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
I always saw him start countless businesses. And even if they didn’t amount or didn’t prosper, it never stopped him from starting something. So that resilience, I think, is something that’s in my bloodline. I always knew I wanted to get into entrepreneurship in some capacity. But for me, I needed to have a plan. And I know that having a job wasn’t the worst thing to do, when you potentially want to get into entrepreneurship. Because a lot of entrepreneurs understand that in order to be a great leader or great boss, you have to be a great worker as well.

I think that the thing that led me to focus on entrepreneurship was because it was just very hard for me to find a job at points in my life. Funny thing about it, I’ve never gotten a job based off of filling out an application. Never got a callback for an interview in my life. I filled out applications but I never got a callback to come interview for a job. Any employment that I had is because of the person who I knew and they knew my values. So that was always something for me that I always knew that I could never rely on. Because I’ve never gotten any traction from just filling out an application and somebody actually calling me back in for an interview.

Loren Feldman:
How did you think about that? Why do you think you didn’t get those callbacks?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
I’m not too sure, to be honest, but I know that I was filling out for countless interviews and just never getting a call. But I never at the time really thought about the why. For me, I knew that I had to take an alternative route. So if I wanted to get a job, I had to either know somebody at the particular place that I wanted to be employed, or nine times out of 10, it probably wouldn’t be happening.

Loren Feldman:
You went to high school in West Philadelphia, right?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Yep. I graduated from West Philadelphia High School.

Loren Feldman:
And what did you do after high school? Is this when you were trying to apply for jobs?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Yeah, my journey is a little different from a lot of people’s. It’s not no straight line. You know, as people will say, you went to school, the kind of straight line. Mine was more like a heart rate, if you can equate it to something. But a lot of learning. So yeah, when I finally graduated high school—because I dropped out, actually, for two years—two years after I was supposed to graduate, when I finally graduated, I actually went to automotive school, because I always loved cars.

Loren Feldman:
And how did that go?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
It was a 12-month program. Seven months in, I had an epiphany. I woke up and said, “I don’t want to work on cars for the rest of my life.” And yeah, I didn’t go back. Yeah, that’s exactly what happened. And then after that, I enrolled in Community College of Philadelphia.

So let me try my hand in this school thing, which for me—I tell people all the time, going through school, I was at most, maybe a D-plus, C student. School wasn’t my thing, in the sense that I always lived outside of a box in the way that I thought. So, for me, I wasn’t really the guy who was super enthused. I liked the idea of meeting and networking with people, but the actual school? It was ups and downs.

So for me, I’m like, “Let’s give this school thing a try,” because both my parents were educated. They both went to college. So it was something I knew I could do, but for me, it just wasn’t really panning out. So I went to CCP and did that for a year and a half and I failed every single class. Yeah, it just didn’t work out. And I tell people this because I ended up wasting my grandma’s and my dad’s hard-earned money. You know, because they’re the ones that paid for my school, and I felt bad. But it just wasn’t something that I was connecting with at the time. So I ended up leaving school.

Loren Feldman:
What did you do then?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
I went to work for my brother. He had a clothing line.

Loren Feldman:
Was he still in D.C.?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
No, at the time, he moved back to Philly. So in 2000-2001, there was like a real big clothing line that came out of Philly called Miskeen—very popular. Probably the most popular clothing line ever to come out of Philadelphia.

Loren Feldman:
And that was your brother’s?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
It was my brother’s and he had three other partners in that. And I went to work for him. When he started that company, and he was getting it up off the ground, I was a board boy. Because we used to hand-paint shirts. So I used to have to load shirts up on easels and let them paint the T-shirts. So that was literally my job.

Loren Feldman:
You now have a restaurant where you specialize in hiring people who’ve been incarcerated. When you’re talking about the heart-rate pattern of the ups and downs of your growing up, are you referring to an experience with prison yourself?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
No, I didn’t have any experience with prison until I was 33 years old. I was able to navigate throughout Philly as a Black man and not have interactions with law enforcement, which is unheard of in a big city like this. My run-ins didn’t come until I was actually 32-33.

Loren Feldman:
What happened then?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
I was doing business with some guys and didn’t know what those guys were into, and you know how that goes. Ignorance is not an excuse. You’re supposed to know. So I ended up getting in some trouble behind that. But for me, I don’t have any regrets in life. So I took it and made this situation out of it that I’m in currently now. And I haven’t looked back since.

Loren Feldman:
Did you have to go to prison at that point?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
No, I didn’t have to go to prison, luckily. People ask me about my particular story, and the reason why I don’t really talk too much about it is because, at the time, I had resources to be able to navigate through the carceral system. And I choose not to focus on myself because of my having resources. In particular, we talk about white-collar crime. It’s a very different situation, as opposed to individuals whose lives are being snatched away from them because they don’t have the resources. Which is a lot of the guys who are in the kitchen who work at Down North Pizza.

So for me, I really like to focus on them. Because I can be looked at as an exception to the rule, because of what I had access to in my personal situation. And these guys spent numerous years in jail, meaning like the total prison count in years of everybody that’s in Down North Pizza is close to 60 years. So for me, that’s more of a focal point than myself and my situation, which are very different.

Loren Feldman:
I think I heard you suggest that having this experience is what led you to Down North Pizza and what you’re doing now. Tell us, how did that happen?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
The funny thing about it is that I came up with this concept before I got into my situation, which just validated the need for Down North Pizza even more. So the concept was already thought of and mapped out probably around 2017. I purchased this building that we reside in in 2015. And at the time, I had my own real estate development company, where I only hired returning citizens. So a lot of people don’t know that this actual building that we are residing in, Down North Pizza, was built by returning citizens, formerly incarcerated individuals. So it’s the full-circle moment about even the building that we reside in.

Loren Feldman:
You built that building as a developer?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
No, I just had the construction team. So it was my company that was doing a lot of development in Philadelphia around the time. That was another one of my entrepreneurial ventures. For some years, I did a lot of real estate development in the city. And my crew was totally individuals who’ve been formerly incarcerated.

Loren Feldman:
I didn’t know about the development company. How did you get into that and how did that go?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
That went well. My dad was a mechanical engineer. So I was exposed to architecture, blueprints, all that stuff, very early on. And actually, growing up, I remember in school winning some architecture competitions, like building houses out of different materials. And I always loved the aesthetic of things. So I always wanted to get into real estate and be a developer. Everything has taken time. So I got into real estate development around 2013-2014.

And I was able to come across real estate, purchase, and actually build some parcels up in Philadelphia. Some I sold, and some I chose to keep, and the thing about this particular property was that it spoke to my soul in a way I can’t really describe. So it never was a parcel that I wanted to actually sell. I always knew that, even when I purchased it, I wasn’t gonna do anything at that moment. Because I wanted to figure out: What I want to do with this? Whatever this thing is going to be, it’s going to have to be something that’s beneficial to the community that it will potentially serve. So for two years, I didn’t do anything with the building, because I was still trying to map out what that thing was going to be.

Loren Feldman:
The building, I believe, is in Strawberry Mansion?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Yes, Strawberry Mansion is probably one of the most impoverished, underdeveloped areas in Philadelphia. It has the highest murder rate per capita. So this is the type of area that, yes, we reside in—an area that needs a lot of TLC. And it’s been neglected on so many different levels. It’s been historically Black-owned. It’s a lot of Black homeowners in this particular corridor of Philly. So there’s a lot of potential. That’s what I saw.

Loren Feldman:
How did you start thinking about pizza? What led to that?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
So, I came to the realization that when I started developing this spot, it was a commercial, mixed-use building space. So I’m like, “You know what? I always wanted to have a restaurant. So I’m gonna build it out.” Mind you, no experience, never worked in a restaurant, never even been in the back of the house of a restaurant, but I’m building this out for a restaurant.

Loren Feldman:
Did you know what a tough business restaurants can be, at that time?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
So it was like, I’m just going to build this thing out. And as I’m building—because that’s just the type of person I am—I don’t necessarily have to have the whole thing figured out at the moment. But I’m gonna just continue to build this thing out and we’ll see where this goes.

So I was building a space out and it was like, “All right, this is where I think things should go. I think this is how it should be. I’m just gonna go for that.” And me just being immersed in the neighborhood, I started to see there’s so much that’s happening negatively around this particular area. And I’m like, “This area needs a lot. But it needs somebody willing to make the initial sacrifice to actually start, and maybe that can bring what this area actually needs to bring other people in and kind of start the repertory justice of repairing this particular area that’s been neglected for so long.”

Loren Feldman:
So what did you do?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
So I’m like, “I’m gonna open up a restaurant. I’m gonna do this.” But it can’t just be a restaurant that’s sitting there just making food and not having a clear benefit for the neighborhood. It has to do something. So that’s when I’m like, “All right, what is one of the issues that plagues this area?” You can pick many, right? I told you it’s underdeveloped, impoverished, so there’s a plethora of things that this particular neighborhood is suffering from.

So one of them is recidivism. It has one of the highest recidivism rates in Philadelphia: people returning back and forth to jail. So how about we do a restaurant where—because I already knew the value of individuals who were previously incarcerated. Because, as I said before, when I had a construction company, those were my employees—the most reliable, resilient individuals, on-time, hard-working individuals, you can imagine. So this was the workforce that I was already used to working with.

So me having the idea of building a concept that solely hired these individuals was not foreign to me. And it made all the sense, because I already knew their inherent value, if you just give them a chance. Also understanding that when you look at the pizza landscape, there’s not too many people that look like myself who’s actually in the business of making pizza. But it’s one of the most consumed food items in America. I wanted to change that narrative as well.

So for me, I’m thinking of how many different boxes I can check with this one small business model in North Philadelphia—everything stacked against me, as far as success, right? No foot traffic, one of the worst areas in Philadelphia, everything that you can think of negative. You got that going against you. But here you are, on the flip side, trying to bring everything positive out of this situation. So that’s where I was at, when it came to this particular concept.

Loren Feldman:
There are a lot of very good pizza places that don’t wind up getting national attention. You managed to start a pizza restaurant that has gotten that kind of attention, on best pizza lists all over the place. How did you figure out how to make pizza like that?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
I’m not a chef and never aspire to be one. Michael Carter, somebody who I met through another person, fit the criteria on every level, when it comes to being the spokesperson and part of the fabric of Down North Pizza. So these luxurious, delicious pies are brought to you by that individual. He’s the architect behind the menu, behind all of these great flavors that you experience. So for me, I’m just behind the scenes, making things happen on every other front. But Mike was focused on the kitchen.

Loren Feldman:
Tell me about Mike. How did he learn how to cook pizza like that?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
He’s worked in the industry for some years. Mike did a total of 12 years in prison, went to culinary school, helped open up some of the top restaurants in Philly, and has been working in these kitchens for some time. And during the pandemic, the last restaurant he was working at closed down. And for people that don’t know, Down North Pizza opened up literally during the pandemic. So that’s another strike against us, as far as going into business.

Loren Feldman:
In 2020?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
We opened the doors at the end of 2020. And that’s another thing. You know, in his neighborhood, we’ve got recidivism. We’ve got all this stuff. And it’s the tail end of a pandemic, where businesses were closing left and right. So for me, if you want to call me a risk taker, you know, you think about all of those things and people would say that’s a hell of a risk. But you know what they say: “You miss 100 percent of the shots you don’t take.” And I don’t lead with fear with anything that I do. And I’m okay if things don’t work out. I’m just gonna go back to the drawing board and figure it out some other way.

Loren Feldman:
Did you have to raise money to open it and hire people and to get started? Or did you have that money from the development company?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Yeah, I used my own money. I was not able to raise any money because people thought I was out of my mind. With all of these things, the strikes that we went through, line by line. It just didn’t make sense to a smart business person.

Loren Feldman:
Were people close to you concerned that you were making a mistake?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
I think people were like, “Yes, sounds good.” You know, condescending, like when you tell somebody an idea? Moreso like, “Yeah, you know, that’s nice.” So that was a lot of what I was getting. I knew what I needed to do in order to make this thing successful. So I wasn’t really too concerned, because I’m the type of person where I love to prove myself to people. And honestly, even if people were willing to raise money, I probably wouldn’t have taken it, because I would have wanted to prove myself. And then we can come back and revisit this at a time where there’s way more leverage on us that I would have after I proved myself that I know this is going to be successful.

Loren Feldman:
So you’re the owner. Mike Carter is the head chef. What’s your day-to-day role in the business?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Everything outside of cooking. So anything you can think of. I have a behind-the-scenes team that I work with, but everything else—outside of physically being in there. And I was actually working the line the first year we opened because I knew nothing about a restaurant. And I was okay with being a student and working and understanding, because this is a business that I invested a lot of money in. So I needed to know everything that I needed to know, down to making a piece of pizza and what things are supposed to look like, taste like. So I sacrificed the first year, just working in the shop.

We always laugh about it now, but I started off on the fries and wings and eventually moved my way up to making pizza. I was literally a student, and I’m okay with that. Because I think being an entrepreneur, one of the biggest character flaws with individuals that they don’t understand is that you have to have an enormous amount of humility, if you ever want to get to any level of success being an entrepreneur. I think that’s missing because, no, I don’t know everything, and I don’t say or act like I know everything. I’m always learning constantly, and that’s every day.

Loren Feldman:
Was the restaurant successful from the beginning?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Now you’re taking me back down memory lane. And it’s like, thinking about the first year of Down North Pizza was bananas. We literally had lines all down Lehigh Avenue. You weren’t getting a pizza for about two to three hours, I want to say. It got a little better after six months, but for the first six months, if you walked in and ordered a pizza, your pizza would be anywhere between an hour and a half and two hours’ wait. And that’s after maybe waiting in line for like half an hour to an hour.

Loren Feldman:
Were you serving to go?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Everything was to go. No ordering apps. The only way you can order is that you physically had to come in. No phone orders. No nothing.

Loren Feldman:
And did you do anything to market the business? Or did you just open up and those lines formed?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
No, we had a whole marketing team. And I had this crazy idea, this marketing idea. I’m looking at the landscape of how businesses are going and being introduced to the market. And I’m like, “What if I modeled this business like the sneaker business where we have these drops? But instead of dropping sneakers, we’re dropping pizzas.” Our grand opening was in March. Because of COVID restrictions, we opened the previous year in December, but it was only through online and it was picking up. You couldn’t have an interaction. One person in the store at a time to come pick their pizza up. We had those limitations.

And for me, I looked at how they would literally drop sneakers on a day and all of the slots would be gone. That’s exactly how I wanted to market the pizza. So with the marketing team, we developed a strategy. Okay, before we actually open to the public, we’re going to have these private tasting events where people came in and were able to taste the pizza. They were talking about it left and right, and if you didn’t get an invite, then people were like, “Oh, you didn’t get invited.” So there was a lot of chatter around it.

So it was building up to: What is this thing that everybody doesn’t really have access to? But it’s a thing, right? So leveraging that, I’m like: Okay, well, we can use this. We can see that people want it. So let’s model this same business model as to like how they drop sneakers, where we’re going to open up our website on Wednesday, and we’re going to only sell 200 pizzas for the whole entire weekend, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Everything was time-slotted, and you get to pick however many pizzas you want.

So the first three months, that’s exactly what we did. And we would open up the website Wednesday night, and by Thursday afternoon, all the slots would be gone throughout the whole weekend. And people had to wait until Friday at four o’clock to pick up the first pizza.

Loren Feldman:
That’s amazing. You started doing this, I think you said, in December of 2020. And then it was in March when you had a full opening—

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
A full opening on March 19th. And now people can come into the shop. But the hype, because the thing was, now it’s being talked about more. And you know what? People weren’t able to get in on the website and get their pizza. So it was a lot of people who still wanted it and even wanted it again who had had it. But you know, it was like a fuss because we had limited quantities.

Loren Feldman:
What is special about your pizza, Muhammad?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
We want to say it’s Detroit-inspired, but the powerful city that Philly is, we have to say it’s a Philly-style pizza. Because it’s not a Detroit-style pizza, and big ups to the Detroit-style pie because, like I said, it’s a lot of inspo from it. But we do things a little different, and we’re proud to say that it’s a different pie.

Loren Feldman:
Are you willing to share what it is you do differently?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
We hydrate our dough different. We don’t use the Wisconsin brick cheese of the traditional Detroit-style pizza. Our pizza is not as dense as Detroit-style. So we have more of a crispy exterior and like a warm, chewy interior. Our flavor profiles are different. We push the envelope when it comes to flavor. I mean, we did a pizza with lamb sausage on it, which has been for the past two years our No. 2 selling pizza. I know people think like, “I never had lamb on pizza.” But you got to get to Down North Pizza to experience it, because this is different.

Loren Feldman:
What’s the number one seller?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
It’s the beef pepperoni pizza. So we don’t serve any pork products. That’s another thing that makes our pizza different. No pork products. So we serve a beef pepperoni pizza with signature Norf sauce. N-O-R-F, which is how we actually say, in the African-American vernacular English, “north.” Philly is N-O-R-F. That’s how we talk. So the Norf sauce is our signature tomato sauce that Mike came up with. So the Roc the Mic pizza, which is the beef pepperoni pizza—because all of our pizzas are named after historic Philadelphia songs, iconic Philadelphia songs. We say that we don’t have a menu, we have a tracklist. And that’s our menu.

Loren Feldman:
That’s great. How many employees do you have?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Seven employees.

Loren Feldman:
How did you come to the conclusion that you could hire only people who have experience being incarcerated?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Because I saw that they don’t have the space that they can claim as theirs. Every other demographic of people has something that is for them. What do they have that they can claim is theirs? We only do this for y’all. Like, this is y’all. And that was for me what I wanted to bring to light, and understanding that they are in and out of these top tier restaurants around the city. They just don’t get the light shined on them. So this is what I wanted: to be able to bring them forth and have the voice and the presence in the industry that they never were given. It was always being somewhere behind a decorated chef and never in the forefront.

Loren Feldman:
Hiring is hard, even if you aren’t trying to provide a service like this, and even if you don’t have this mission. People make mistakes hiring all the time. Nobody bats a thousand. Do you feel it’s harder when you restrict yourself to hiring people who’ve been incarcerated?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Ask me my staff turnover rate. And then I’ll answer the question, after you ask me that.

Loren Feldman:
What’s your staff turnover rate, Muhammad?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
The same five individuals who started have been there since we opened the doors, year one. So, to segue into the next part of the question, the original question: You said it. Hiring is hard, regardless of who it is. Master’s, PhDs, whatever. So, the fallacy that people think that, “Oh, because this person is formerly incarcerated, how do you deal with that?” Number one thing people say, “Well, what if they steal?” I’ve worked with people who weren’t formerly incarcerated, and those are the people who stole from me and did deceiving things—not the ones who had been formerly incarcerated.

So the stereotypes out there are wrong. And, yes, we had some people who came through, maybe didn’t work out here, but we also referred them to other restaurants. They’re still working in the industry in some capacity. But the thought that, just because they are formerly incarcerated, it’s not going to work is wrong—a wrong way of thinking. Because a lot of their characteristics: being resilient, having to show up, and working and making, what, less than $1 an hour, right? All of these things that they had to go through being locked up in jail, they have the work ethic. It’s just, are you going to give them a chance to show it? And are you going to give them an environment that’s conducive to growth?

Because now, when we talk about Down North Pizza, this is more of a family environment where everybody has a shared experience. So nobody’s living in no one’s shadow of who they think they are. It is what it is, and they are who they are. And they don’t have to worry about nobody judging them because of that. So when you put them in an environment like that, that’s where growth lives, where they don’t have to hide, where they can come in and be the best version of themselves.

Loren Feldman:
As you suggested, your turnover rate speaks for itself. You obviously hired the right five people. Do you remember how many people you had to talk to, to interview, to find those five people?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Maybe about a total of 10.

Loren Feldman:
Was part of the hiring process for you assessing whether somebody was ready to leave the past behind and take a job seriously? Is that something that you felt you had to determine with the people you talked to?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
If I’m determining from your past, like right there, like what you just now said, then I’m already looking at you in a negative light. I can’t start from the past. So your past is your past, right? What are you doing moving forward? For me, like I said, we’re gonna go back to when I said I never got invited to interview for a job in my life, based on filling out applications. What that says is, how much weight do these applications and all this stuff really hold? Because I’m more than confident that if I would have gotten in front of somebody, I would have gotten the job, right off the bat.

So my interview process is a lot different. I need to meet the person. I need to talk to that person. I need to get a feel for that person. That’s how I always hired, with all of my businesses. Like I said, I had a whole development company where I hired formerly incarcerated individuals. And if I had to take into account their pasts, then I would not have been able to move forward with them.

Loren Feldman:
When you sit down with them and have that conversation, what is it you’re hoping to hear?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
It’s just certain things that I look for, with certain questions that I ask. And it’s like, “Yeah, I can work with this.”

Loren Feldman:
Can you give me an example of what kind of questions you ask?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
First of all, the thought that, “Okay, you’ve been locked up for, let’s say, 10 years, and you haven’t been employed for that long” is false. Because if anybody knows about prison, the guys on the inside, the residents residing in prison, they’re the ones who run the jail in every aspect—from the cooking to the cleaning to everything that needs to be done. So they had been working and had to show up for work throughout those years in prison and under those conditions. So for me, when I’m sitting and I’m talking and hearing what they had to go through and how they still remain positive in those circumstances, that means a lot. It means you have resilience.

So I’ve never had an excuse from somebody working here like, “I wasn’t able to get to work. My Uber didn’t come.” It’s like, they had no problem getting to work if they had to get on public transportation, if they take Uber. Where other people use those as excuses, they’re not excuses that we particularly deal with, because people understand that they have to be somewhere. And they take that to heart.

Loren Feldman:
Do you get a lot of job applications?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Yes. And you know, we have to expand. We have to open up another place, because not only do we employ, I own the building and we have two apartments on top of the building. And also, opening up this pizza shop, it’s like, “What can I do with the spots?” And it’s like the spots on top were reserved for people who worked at the shop, who needed housing.

There are programs that I can work with as the landlord to get their whole rent paid for six months. As long as they’re working, it’s going to be free for them, and the state will pay me. So a lot of guys had that option where they came and worked and also lived. Like I said, I was getting paid by the state, and it was free for them for six months. They were able to get a little cushion, save up some money, and go from there, and actually get the confidence needed. So now they’ve got a little savings, and now they’re working. And then they can pay the rent from six months on.

Loren Feldman:
Do you get a tax break for hiring people coming out of prison?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Yeah, the city has a program set up that they’ll pay up to six dollars an hour reimbursement if you hire individuals as returning citizens. But that was something I found out later on. So it wasn’t a driving factor. Like, I’m gonna build my business model. It was like, “Oh, well, I didn’t know that.”

Loren Feldman:
I’ve spoken to business owners who’ve tried to do this and have struggled with it. And I have no doubt it was in part because they were doing something that they weren’t prepared to do. They didn’t know enough. Would you have advice for someone who wants to do this but hasn’t figured out how to do it?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Why do you want to do it? What’s your connection? Because the one thing about individuals who are being helped—and that’s in anything. Like homeless, you know, you name it. Why? If they don’t see that you have a literal physical connection to the problem that you’re attempting to solve, they see that from a mile away. And it’s very hard for them to have a connection with you if they see that. So it’s like, why are you in this business? Why are you doing this? The sincere connection will almost never be there if they can feel or sense that this is not right.

Loren Feldman:
What do you mean by a sincere connection?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
The connection to the problem. Have you had this experience, whether it’s yourself, your family, or anybody? What’s the relatability to them?

Loren Feldman:
That’s what I thought you meant. But I guess what I’m asking is, suppose someone hasn’t had that personal experience. But they see this as the right thing to do. And their motivation is to help people who need help, but also to find good employees. And they think this is a path to do that. Is that not enough?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Yeah, that’s enough. But you have to be sincere, I’m telling you. Because back to my point: If they feel like it’s not, it’s going to be hard for you to be connected to these individuals who sincerely need the help. So if they feel like, “Oh, this is just all business. You don’t talk to employees. You don’t connect with them. You don’t know anything about them. It’s just a money thing,” then yeah, you might get a higher turnover rate.

And we don’t do no coddling around here. We hold everybody to the highest level of accountability, even myself, with whatever we’re responsible for. But a lot of times, it shows that the reasoning for people wanting to get into the business of help, is not to help people and maybe to help themselves.

So I know a lot of people struggle with sustainability, because it’s not about them. It’s about the person. And like I said, these people can see things if something’s not right. I’m a faithful individual. And I really believe that you have to have sincere intentions when you’re going into these different industries. Of course, you’re a for-profit business. You need to make money. But if you’re mission-aligned, you need to be 10 toes down on that mission as well.

Loren Feldman:
Have you ever had the experience of feeling as though you took a chance on someone and they let you down?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
No, no. I don’t give people a chance to let me down. Because I’m just a person, at the end of the day. You only can get let down, if you have expectations. At the base level, coming in, somebody needing a job, and you are employing a person, you shouldn’t have those extreme expectations, because that’s how you get into somebody letting you down. I think for me, my expectations grow over time with individuals. So the more we go through these motions, and the more you prosper, that’s when I tack on expectations. They’re never initial, for me.

So for somebody who didn’t work out, or they chose to do what they wanted to do, it doesn’t bother me because I know that I’ve done everything I could do for that individual. And it just didn’t work out. And no disrespect and no ill feelings towards that individual at all. If he was a good worker, and it just wasn’t a fit for me, I’ll still refer you to somewhere else. But the expectation thing is how you get let down. Of course, now we’ve got three or four years in, so there’s expectations with the guys now. But initially, it wasn’t. First day, it’s like, “No, we’re going to see how this goes.”

Loren Feldman:
I suspect some of the people you’ve hired, before you hired them, were concerned as to whether they would ever find a job. And the fact that they’ve stayed with you this amount of time, I can only imagine that must be a huge turning point in their lives. Can you tell us about some of those people and what it means to them?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Well, at this point, it’s like a family. We become family because not only do we work together, we also take trips together. We also go on hiking excursions together. We also travel the world together. It’s more than just the pizza shop.

And I’m not telling nobody to do what I did and try to model what I’ve done. Because as we all know, it doesn’t mean you get the same results. I took a chance and decided to build it in this way. And I had a level of success, but success in itself is subjective. And I tell people if we never sold another slice of pizza, and this thing wasn’t a thing anymore, we achieved a level of success that I could never imagine. I’ve had people call me and reach out to me from all over the world about Down North Pizza in Strawberry Mansion, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

We’ve had individuals in Strawberry Mansion who never would set foot in Strawberry Mansion. You think of any top publication, any top newscast, they’ve all been to Strawberry Mansion—from the Hulus to Netflix to having the whole Lehigh Avenue blocked off with a production crew. We’ve experienced all this in this particular neighborhood, this one small pizza shop. So when it comes to success, we’ve been able to amplify the voices of the voiceless individuals. And now people are looking at, “Oh, well, maybe they’re right. There is value in these individuals. Let’s go out and take these chances, these necessary chances.” And whether it be out of necessity now because of the labor shortages, at least people are getting a chance.

Loren Feldman:
Are you planning on expanding?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Yes, yes, yes. And I was never in a race to expand. I’ve been offered countless opportunities. I’ll never forget the opportunity that I was offered in the Philadelphia Airport, Terminal D, one of the highest traffic terminals in the Philadelphia airport. And it was a brand new pizza shop, used to be—I forget that pizza store name, I can’t remember. But they had recently closed, and I didn’t even have to go through the RFP process. It was like, “Listen, if you want it, it’s yours.” And I’m like, “We’ll explore the opportunity.” The problem was that we could not have access to go in and out of the airport, because we’re all convicted felons, right? So I’m like: How’s this gonna work?

And they were like, “Well, maybe you could think of just leaving off the mission for this location.” And I said, “One thing I’m not going to do is compromise why I’m here, and why I’ve gotten here. You only know about me because of my mission. So you’re asking me to leave off our mission just for the sake of being in an airport?” And I declined the offer. And I said, “Thank you, but I’m not willing to do that.”

Loren Feldman:
Do you have any expansion plans actually in the works?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
I want to take this on the road to different cities, and I’ve been taking my time, just looking at the business, the flow. And even with investors—they want to see where’s your medium point, where you’re leveling out at. Are you going up and coming all the way down? Are you going up and staying up and leveling? So I want at least three years under my belt, which at the end of this year will be the third year. And business has been steady in the manner that I need it to be. And now we can look at these expansions.

Loren Feldman:
Are you looking for investors to help you expand?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Yeah, of course, I’m gonna do it that way. And I have a particular model in mind. So that’s what I’m currently working on, just finalizing what that model is gonna look like, because I think I got something that will make a lot of sense to a lot of people. So 2024, I think, is going to be a big year for us. Because we’re building a whole hospitality group. I do want to open up another restaurant in Philly, but it’s probably gonna be a different concept. But when it comes to Down North Pizza, that’s something I think the world needs to see. And that’s where I’m going. Take this from Philly, from Strawberry Mansion, to different cities around the world.

Loren Feldman:
Are you comfortable saying how much money you invested in Down North?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
I think initially with the building and the build-out, probably somewhere between at least $300,000, probably more, in getting this off the ground. But you know, I was in the clear a couple of months after we opened.

Loren Feldman:
And it’s operating profitably now.

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Yeah.

Loren Feldman:
And do you still have those lines forming up and down Lehigh Avenue?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
No, that mellowed out. And we still consistently sell the amount of pizzas that we need to sell to be profitable every week in and week out.

Loren Feldman:
Do you still do any marketing? Or is that not necessary at this point?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
No, we still have to continuously market through social media, through the community that we serve. We still do marketing, rewards programs, all that stuff. We do delivery now, which we didn’t in the first year and a half. So yeah, people are still supporting it, and this has become a destination spot for people who visit Philadelphia. It’s on their list. And a lot of my day to day, too—I know you asked earlier—is around my Down North Foundation, the nonprofit that started about two years ago.

Loren Feldman:
And the purpose of that is?

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
Reconstructing relationships, culture, and places to kind of create this resilient community, which has seen a lot of value in Strawberry Mansion. So different initiatives that we’re rolling out for the area of Strawberry Mansion and for the youth is what the Down North Foundation focuses on. We have different programs. I run a program inside the JJSC which is the Juvenile Justice Center, the juvenile prison at 48th and Haverford. I build a regenerative garden space inside there for youth to learn agriculture skills. And we also have a culinary program that Chef Mike from the restaurant teaches every Tuesday.

They’re farm to table—like they literally grow food in the garden, and they cook it. And they learn agricultural skills. It’s also a healing garden, somewhere that they are able to have visits for their family and just exist in nature. I’ve developed that within the past year, and it’s been going great. I think the foundation focuses more on preventative measures. How can we prevent people from getting to the point where they have to do long stints in prison? What can we do to kind of help them mitigate that?

Loren Feldman:
That’s amazing. What a story. Muhammad, thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it. I also want to thank my sponsor, the Great Game of Business, which helps businesses use an open-book management system to build healthier companies. You can learn more at greatgame.com. Thank you, Muhammad.

Muhammad Abdul-Hadi:
You’re welcome.