Latest podcast episodes
Episode 187: Man, I’m Glad We Didn’t Do an ESOP
Man, I’m Glad We Didn’t Do an ESOP
TIME TO LISTEN: 53:38

This week, Matt Hoying, president of Choice One Engineering, explains to Shawn Busse and Jay Goltz how he created a DIY employee-ownership plan for his firm. Some 10 years ago, Matt’s predecessor as president tasked him with selecting an ownership structure that would engage employees and help Choice One be as successful as possible. That sent Matt on a mission of discovery in which he researched the pluses and minuses of every structure he could find—including employee stock ownership plans—before ultimately creating his own structure. Matt’s plan doesn’t enjoy the tax advantages of an ESOP, but it’s open even to part-timers, and it requires employees who want to be owners to make a financial investment in the business. In other words, they aren’t given ownership; they have to buy into it. Shawn and Jay quiz Matt on the choices he made and how the plan has worked out.

Can Jimmy Beans Wool Sell Yarn on LinkedIn?
TIME TO LISTEN: 46:27

This week, Shawn Busse and Laura Zander discuss what exactly Laura’s job should be. She’s CEO, of course, and she’s been focused on acquisitions and growing the business, but she’s never really found someone to take over the big role she used to play, which leads to these questions: Should she go back to being her own chief marketing officer? Or does she need to go out and spend real money to hire one? And then, toward the end of the conversation, Laura actually devises a plan on the spot to sell yarn in a surprising and creative way, which perhaps answers the very question we’d been discussing. Plus: Shawn explains how having the right partner can make a business in the beginning and break it over time as he celebrates having made his final payout to his own former partner.

Managing Your Tasks, Your Credit Cards, and Your Anxiety
TIME TO LISTEN: 40:10

This week, Jay Goltz, Jaci Russo, and Sarah Segal talk about whether it’s finally time for Jay to enter the brave new world of task-management software. That’s, in fact, what his two kids in the business are encouraging him to do. As it happens, Jaci and Sarah have tried most of the project-management tools out there—Monday, Basecamp, Asana—and they kind of love them, but with one caveat: They can be a lot of work. Which is all Jay needed to hear. After that, we talk about the challenges of managing credit cards and points, and Jay explains why, after 40 years, American Express is no longer what’s in his wallet. Plus: the owners tackle a question posed by an entrepreneur with a very new startup: “When does the anxiety of a new business subside?” asks the newbie, which prompts some laughter and this answer: The anxiety subsides in the 42nd year, says Jay, who’s been running his business for 42 years.

That Would Put Me Out of Business
TIME TO LISTEN: 53:17

This week, Mel Gravely, Liz Picarazzi, and Jaci Russo talk about how they set prices. Jaci explains why she refuses to respond to requests for proposals. “We have not participated in a single RFP in 15 years,” she says, “and we won’t under my watch.” Mel explains how his construction company manages to get work despite always being among the highest-priced bidders (which is why he never gets government jobs). And Liz tells us what happened when she was forced to raise prices because of the tariffs placed on goods manufactured in China. But first, she tells us what she’s thinking now that there’s a possibility those tariffs could go to 60 percent. Plus: We review how the three owners handle employee reviews.

‘I Had to Fire the Guy’
TIME TO LISTEN: 49:53

This week, Paul Downs, Jay Goltz, and Sarah Segal talk about sexual harassment and where you draw the line with employees. Is it sexual harassment for one employee to ask another for a date? Is it sexual harassment to ask twice? Does it make sense to have a policy of zero tolerance? Or is it better to leave room for discretion and judgment? The conversation was sparked by a recent situation Jay experienced with an employee who had been with the company for almost three decades, having started at the age of 17. “It was a very sad thing,” Jay tells us.

Plus: Sarah Segal asks whether it’s better to build her business on a bunch of small clients or a smaller number of large clients. And is being CEO a health risk? We begin the episode by talking about an eye-catching story the Wall Street Journal recently published noting that an increasing number of CEOs have been dying on the job, presumably because of the heightened levels of stress. I asked the three CEOs on the episode if they’ve been taking care of themselves—but they weren’t having it. Instead of thanking me for my concern, they chided me for highlighting an article they consider complete BS. Which, of course, is what we love about these guys. They call ‘em the way they see ‘em.

Never miss a 21 Hats Podcast episode
Why Would You Want to Own a Business?
TIME TO LISTEN: 42:23

This week, Shawn Busse, Jay Goltz, and Jennifer Kerhin respond to a somewhat depressing view of business ownership offered by an investor who buys businesses for a living. That view, essentially, is that for most owners, building a business is a daily knife fight of long hours, unexpected risks, slow growth, and meager returns. In this episode, I read most of the investor’s observations to Shawn, Jay, and Jennifer, and get their reactions, which hit upon a bunch of issues that are not widely understood—including how fast growth can destroy a business, how even a profitable company can go bust, and why a good metric to assess the health of a small business might be how many people have been crying in the bathroom this year. While Shawn, Jay, and Jennifer disagree vehemently with a few of the investor’s assertions—”Kiss my ass!” says Jay in response to one—they do acknowledge that he makes a lot of good points, which leads to an obvious question: Why would anyone do this? Why would anyone subject themselves to this kind of life? As you might expect, Shawn, Jennifer, and Jay have a response to that as well.

Have We Been Too Generous With Employees?
TIME TO LISTEN: 50:00

This week, Mel Gravely, Jaci Russo, and William Vanderbloemen talk about the possibility that, after several years of the Great Resignation and the labor shortage, some owners may have given away the store. We all know the risks of not offering employees enough. What are the risks of offering too much? How do you even know when you’ve crossed the line? The owners also discuss why this might be a good time to consider acquiring other businesses. “I think this is a time to double-down,” says Mel. And Jaci explains how she and her team are reviewing everything the company does to see if AI can be employed to improve each and every process. Oh, and one last thing: How exactly, in this day and age, are business owners supposed to keep track of all of the subscriptions—and all of the subscription log-ins—that they and their employees have acquired through the years? How much money are they spending on stuff they no longer use? “Thanks a lot,” responds Mel. “I’m starting to sweat.”

We’re Making Good Money. I’m Not Sure How.
TIME TO LISTEN: 48:56

This week, Jay Goltz, Jennifer Kerhin, and Liz Picarazzi discuss their efforts to get a better grasp of what drives their profits. They ask how much of their finances they should manage themselves. And how much should they rely on an accountant or a fractional CFO? When does delegation become abdication? Jennifer says she’s benefitted from hiring a fractional CFO who has taken an active leadership role, including setting up a database that helps Jennifer see in real time whether the fees she’s charging cover the labor she’s deploying. “Whatever she's charging me,” says Jennifer of her CFO, “it's absolutely worth it.” Liz, meanwhile, thinks she should be doing more herself. And Jay says he was paying big bucks for a full-time CFO until late last year. “And it was a complete waste of money,” he says, which is why he’s decided not to replace her. Plus: Liz reveals her secret strategy for marketing directly to municipal government officials, some of whom have started to use the term “Citibin” generically. And the owners respond to a question from the head of a cost-reduction service who wonders why she’s struggling so much to get business owners to try her risk-free service.

The Worker Co-Op Solution
TIME TO LISTEN: 53:48

In this week’s bonus episode, Cameron Madill takes us on his succession journey, which began years ago when he started having conversations with older business owners, many of whom seemed to feel trapped. They’d had a lot of success, they were proud of the business they’d built, but they weren’t sure what to do with it or how to leave it. None of the usual options seemed terribly appealing. Hoping to write a different ending, Madill, now in his 40s, started looking for better options much earlier than most owners, and the one he landed on was an unusual choice: a worker cooperative. Now, there are aspects of this model that are likely to give some owners pause. For one, a co-op probably isn’t going to produce the biggest payday for a selling owner. And if the owner wants to stick around as CEO, he or she will have to report to a board, and that board can challenge any and all of the owner’s decisions. But Madill, as he explains in a conversation we recorded late last year, before he stepped down from his role as CEO, decided to sell to his employees anyway. Not only is he glad he did, he thinks co-ops are an option far more owners, especially those struggling to find a buyer, should consider.

New Year’s Resolution? Make. Some. Money.
TIME TO LISTEN: 49:06

This week, Shawn Busse, Paul Downs, and Laura Zander talk about why 2023 was so challenging for them and what they plan to do differently in 2024. “Last year was a year when I knew I was going to be making a bunch of investments and didn't expect to show much or any of a profit,” says Paul. “And I absolutely nailed that goal.” Shawn, meanwhile, thinks his new marketing scheme is working, and Laura is addressing her issues by going shopping — shopping, that is, for businesses. She’s now bought a total of six, and she offers a step-by-step guide to how even a relatively small business can grow through acquisition, including what she’s looking for (mostly companies in distress), how she sets a price (she aims to recoup her cash outlay pretty quickly), how she finances the deals (not with a bank!), and how she integrates her old and new operations (that can be a bear).

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