Clients and Taxes and Bears, Oh My!

Introduction:

This week, Jaci Russo explains how she put an end to her eight-month drought of new clients. Jennifer Kerhin takes us through the bureaucratic nightmare of managing remote workers based out of state (“That is a headache that I don’t wish on my worst enemy,” says Jaci, who has found a way to sidestep the problem). And Liz Picarazzi brings us up to date on her ongoing struggle to get her trash enclosures certified as bear-resistant. The common thread to these challenges may lie in these two questions: When is continuing to fight the good fight the definition of entrepreneurship? And when is it the definition of insanity? Plus: Why does it cost so much to exhibit at a trade show? And did you know that as recently as 35 years ago, there were still laws on the books requiring women to have a male relative cosign on a business loan? Those laws are now gone, thankfully, but Jaci, Jennifer, and Liz can all attest that that kind of paternalism is very much alive and well.

— Loren Feldman

Guests:

Jaci Russo is CEO of BrandRusso.

Jennifer Kerhin is CEO of SB Expos and Events.

Liz Picarazzi is CEO of Citibin.

Producer:

Jess Thoubboron is founder of Blank Word.

Full Episode Transcript:

Loren Feldman:
Welcome Jennifer, Liz, and Jaci. It’s great to have you here. Jaci, let’s start with you. The last time you were here, you told us that you’d gone eight months and counting without signing up a new client, and you were somewhat concerned about that. Anything new?

Jaci Russo:
I think “somewhat concerned” is a very nice way of saying it, Loren. I think it was heart-racing and palm-sweating, and I was really starting to freak the fuck out. So luckily, while I was traveling at the beginning of October, we signed not one, but two new clients, which is par for the course. We average about one and a half per month. And it’s what I think it was, which is: bigger clients, newer markets, longer lead times, stronger processes for approvals. And it’s a little bit of my impatience matched with some improvements to our process. And now, here we are back on track.

Loren Feldman:
Glad to hear it. You mentioned last time that you’d changed your process—I think the way you do proposals—a little bit, and that you were going back to the way you did it before. Can you tell us more about what that was? Is that what you’re referring to?

Jaci Russo:
Oh, yeah. We did a number of things differently. I’m fascinated by the line between the definition of insanity, which is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result, and the definition of entrepreneur, which is to keep going even though sometimes all signs tell you to quit. So I find those two things to be the same and in direct conflict with each other. And those are the two hats I switch out every day. So it’s about making subtle changes that I think are improvements, while still staying on the path to what I think is the right direction.

And you know, I have a really great team, and I trust them to do their jobs. My job is to help them, support them, encourage them, and get out of their way. So we changed our proposal process to something that we felt was a little softer, more storytelling, a little more client-focused, less us-focused. And that fell flat. And we went back to the thing that I think is the exact opposite of what it should be, which is: It’s all about us. It’s all about how we work. It’s all about what we do. And we’re two for two.

Loren Feldman:
How do you explain that?

Jaci Russo:
Well, I can tell you that we’re gonna stick with our old proposal from now on, and I’m not gonna mess with that again. I think it’s a couple of things. I think we weren’t being detailed enough, and so we’ve corrected that. I do think there’s still a place for the customer as the hero, for the client as the subject of the story. But they’re hiring us. And so we can’t go so far pendulum-swinging into one direction that we miss the opportunity to still give them reason why we’re the right choice.

Loren Feldman:
I was interested in hearing what you said about the definition of insanity and continuing to plow on as an entrepreneur. That’s something that I’ve talked to a lot of business owners about. Nobody starts a business and builds a business without being really stubborn and ignoring all the people saying, “What are you thinking? What are you doing? Go get a job.”

Everybody hears that kind of thing, and you have to keep going. But at some point, you have to recognize when something nuts isn’t working. You have to recognize when it is time to take advice from other people. I’m curious, Liz or Jennifer, have you confronted this issue?

Liz Picarazzi:
I definitely have. I know I’m insane, and I am okay with that. I think a lot of it has to do with being an entrepreneur, or maybe the entrepreneur is a symptom of being insane. But I totally agree with Jaci that they go together. With me, I definitely have a little bit of a rebellious streak. If someone says something can’t be done, my reaction is going to be, “I’ll show you!” Which is not exactly a healthy thing, but it has sort of worked for me as an entrepreneur.

And I think there is almost an aspect of gambling and addiction, even, in being an entrepreneur. That’s not to say that we’re all addicts, but there’s some similarity with doing something over and over and not having it be right for you and kind of being on the line. Even though while we’re in it, it feels really uncomfortable. When we get through that discomfort, it almost always feels worth it. And that’s what you’re going for, is that feeling of: I’ve prevailed, I’ve made it. And a little bit of: I’ve proved them wrong. So there’s some righteousness in it. But that’s how I would explain my experience with entrepreneurship being related to being insane.

Loren Feldman:
Have you figured out a way that works for you, Liz, to decide when it’s time to just keep plowing ahead and when it’s time to change direction?

Liz Picarazzi:
I would say I definitely don’t have it totally figured out. But as I get older, I just realize that I’m more exhausted when I’m very willful about things and when I’m very pushy and insistent. So that’s definitely a big part of who I am. But if I notice that I’m super fatigued—you know, oftentimes, it’s trying to push a boulder up a mountain. And as I get older, that’s feeling a lot more tiring.

Loren Feldman:
How about you, Jennifer? Have you confronted this as well?

Jennifer Kerhin:
I think every entrepreneur, every CEO, has. I think I have a different approach than Liz. I have been more of a reluctant entrepreneur. I embrace it now fully, but in the beginning, for a long time, I was a little bit more reluctant—very reluctant. I think what I see in myself is I’m not afraid of failure. And to be an entrepreneur, you have to embrace the fact that you will fail in something, in many things, in lots of things. And it doesn’t even matter, actually, if your business fails, because you can get another business, right?

Loren Feldman:
Oh, it matters if your business fails!

Jennifer Kerhin:
Well, I get it. But there are so many people out there who start a company, go forward, and realize there’s just not enough return on the investment, on the equity, and the sweat equity, or the time spent. So they close the business down. I don’t mean that it fails, but they close it, and they start a different one. Those entrepreneurs who are serial entrepreneurs, who have had multiple companies, they say, “Okay, this was good, but it’s not enough for me. I’m going to close it down and move somewhere else.”

I think if you can embrace failure, and not take it personally, and say, “Look, it’s just not the right fit, the market’s decided,” and move on, that, to me, is how you can keep your head above water. And you’re not a failure personally. The business failed. Or, if you’re going to try something, how many times have all of us tried something? It didn’t work. You’ve just got to plow forward. So to me, it’s less insanity and more: accept the fact I’m going to fail and how I’m gonna get out of it.

Loren Feldman:
Have you figured out how to decide when it is in fact a failure in time to do something different? And when it’s worth hanging in there and keep pushing?

Jennifer Kerhin:
I think the two metrics for me are: the market’s pretty good at deciding if what you’re trying to do doesn’t sell or if people start resigning. So your culture is not working or something’s not working internally. Those two are the standard metrics that I think about. As long as things are selling, there’s some healthy profit, and people are staying, then we’re doing something right.

Loren Feldman:
Jaci, when you told us last time about your drought, we had a conversation and you indicated that you’d wondered a little bit as to whether your move to a four-day week with people working 20% less might have had an impact and had some role in creating that drought. Did you end up thinking that that was a factor?

Jaci Russo:
Oh, Loren, I think you are the wisest man I know, but I have to correct you on this one point. I didn’t think that. Jay said that. And Jay doesn’t think it. I think Jay is gonna die on that sword, swearing by it. I absolutely disagree with him.

Loren Feldman:
Jaci, you’re absolutely right that Jay brought that up. Maybe I’m wrong. I thought you had said that the thought had occurred to you as well.

Jaci Russo:
If I said something to indicate that, then I misspoke. I did say then, and do still know now, that we will be a profitable company, bottom line, by the four-day week because I’m going to end up hiring more people to fill that 20-percent gap. I mean, it’s just inevitable. I cannot get 40 hours work out of somebody who’s only working 32 hours.

I mean, it’s just the way it is. But that’s something that I am comfortable with, and committed to, and happy about, because I’d rather be a little less profitable and have the culture that we have right now and have the happy team that I have right now.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Jaci, I was thinking about, when you were worried about clients coming in, and then, of course, they came in, how long do they work with you? Do they come and work for a month, six months, a year? Is it recurring? What does that look like?

Jaci Russo:
We are probably about 80 percent of total revenue retainer and 20 percent project. Our average client lifetime right now is five years, eight months.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Okay. You keep a lot of your clients, so when you get a new, one it’s great.

Jaci Russo:
We do.

Loren Feldman:
Jennifer, let’s talk about you. We haven’t seen you in a while because you’ve been traveling a lot during your trade show busy season. Have you made it through that busy season? And how’s it going?

Jennifer Kerhin:
Yeah, October is the month for trade shows. We have 11 of them starting from the end of September to mid November. It’s a crazy time for us. But it’s been an exciting time. Trade shows are happening. There is great attendance across all of our client meetings. Exhibitors are really happy. The post-COVID surge, which people weren’t sure if it was going to be temporary or permanent, is continuing. And we are very into doing hybrid events. And those continue strong, as my association clients are trying to figure out the right mix between in person versus virtual. So everything is moving full steam ahead. And I’m pretty excited.

Loren Feldman:
When we last spoke to you, you were also excited about your new website, which I think you were completing in stages. You weren’t completely through with it, but you’d made some big progress. How’s that going?

Jennifer Kerhin:
Also fantastic. I need to knock on wood, it sounds like. The website’s gone great. We’ve gotten a lot of people commenting on it. Our case studies are continuing. They haven’t been published yet. But they’re being written and produced.

We also did a lot of B-roll footage because we’re creating some videos. So the videos will be out January 1st. So when we were on show sites and conventions, we had someone go around them and film. So we’re firing on all cylinders.

I’ve hired a couple new leaders for my team. Pretty excited about that. I think a lot of things are going really well. It’s been a very tough couple of years. And I feel like I’m seeing—what is that sailboat reference—the headwinds, right? We’re just making incredible progress with the headwinds.

Loren Feldman:
In the past, Jennifer, we’ve talked about you working 12 hour days, six days a week, trying to keep up. I’m happy to hear about those hires. Has that helped?

Jennifer Kerhin:
Not yet. Not yet. It should. It should. I’m still working ridiculous hours, but it’s our busy season. As we get through it, these leaders are going to be taking a lot of stuff off my plate. It’s interesting, as you go through stages, we hired an incredible amount of staff, but getting to the next stage of management and leadership is the stage we’re in right now. So they’ve just started.

And then automating all of our finances. So I spent a lot of time the last four to six months on automating finances, and this past month was the first time someone else sent out invoices. Someone else did the accounts payables. It’s been fantastic. I just oversee it. I’m still working crazy hours, but we’re gonna get there.

Loren Feldman:
Do you feel like the stuff you’re doing during those crazy hours is mostly stuff that you should be doing? Or are you still doing some chores that you really need to offload?

Jennifer Kerhin:
I think it’s a combination. Some of the work I’m backfilling. We took on clients where the complexity level is higher than our typical ones. And so I’m backfilling support to help some people who can do the day-to-day, but need a little bit more support to get to that higher level. And I’m doing some tasks that I shouldn’t be. I need to offload.

And then I’m doing some tasks because you build, you just—somebody’s got to do it, right? Someone’s got to take a hold of the marketing team and do it. There’s vision stuff I just can’t get rid of. But for the first time, I feel that the things I should be doing as CEO take up more time than things that I shouldn’t be doing, which is good. The balance of power’s back to me being a CEO, rather than just a worker bee.

Loren Feldman:
Can you tell us what those positions were that you hired for?

Jennifer Kerhin:
Sure. We hired a director of trade-show sales. Sales is my love. And I had been trying to do that job over a team, because that’s where we started. That’s a typical story of a CEO holding on tightly for something for too long. I hired a new director of trade show sales. She just started. Fantastic. The team likes her. I look forward to getting off of this more and more. I think it’s gonna make a big difference with us.

Loren Feldman:
And you work fully remote, right? Is this somebody that you found in your neighborhood or around the world?

Jennifer Kerhin:
Around the country. Not the world yet. We’re not quite global. We found someone in the Midwest. We’re in 13 states, I think, now. We need to do another podcast on how complicated state taxes, state fees, local taxes, local fees, and the whole process with the federal government… It is a nightmare. No one has caught up yet to remote workers, from a tax standpoint, but—

Loren Feldman:
You can’t automate that?

Jennifer Kerhin:
No, you can’t. I’ve tried. I’ve called companies. I called ADP. ADP is my payroll processor. No. I haven’t found a way yet. It’s still very, very, very time consuming and complicated.

Loren Feldman:
Jaci, I think you have people working around the country. Are you facing this issue, too?

Jaci Russo:
The people who we have that are not based in Louisiana are all independent contractors for exactly that reason.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Yep. It’s complicated. It’s not easy.

Jaci Russo:
It’s very complicated.

Loren Feldman:
So it’s easier to handle if they’re an independent contractor, as opposed to an actual employee?

Jennifer Kerhin:
Yeah, she’s not paying taxes.

Jaci Russo:
Right. But they have to really be independent contractors, because you don’t want to run the risk of coding them that way, and violating the rules. So we have gone through and checked and double-checked, and they are absolutely independent contractors. So we’re able to do it that way.

Loren Feldman:
Are you able to manage them the way you would like to, while avoiding doing things that would make them count as an employee?

Jaci Russo:
Well, I don’t manage them like an employee, because they’re not employees. And so they don’t attend our staff meetings. They’re not a part of our team the way that our teammates are. But they have a specific project, and they do that specific project. And they’re paid a specific amount of money for that project. And they do projects for other people. So they are true independent contractors. But to take on the cross state payroll taxes, that is a headache that I don’t wish on my worst enemy.

Jennifer Kerhin:
It’s been a big headache, and the local, state, and federal government were not prepared for the mass amount of remote workers post-COVID. On one of the earlier podcast episodes, I had an argument with Jay about commercial buildings.

You will start to see a lot more commercial buildings are being converted to residential. It’s a painful process. It’s expensive. But I don’t think these downtowns are coming back. People love to work remotely. And so a lot of commercial buildings versus residential, they’re behind. They just haven’t caught up to what’s happening out there. And the tax situation is the same way. Those two pillars of people coming into the office, we’re just not going back.

Loren Feldman:
I have to admit, I thought the tax issue was more easily handled. It’s baffling to me that ADP hasn’t solved that problem.

Jennifer Kerhin:
It’s purely a side effect of the amount of people working remotely and the companies like mine—small companies that can take advantage of this. And so I’m getting the benefit of incredible employees throughout the states, but the complication is high, the compliance issues are severe, and there are certain states that I’m not even going to hire from because they’re just going to make my life way more difficult.

Loren Feldman:
It’s just so hard to believe. I mean, this is such a big issue. There are so many companies doing this.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Well, there are big companies, giant companies with 10,000 employees. So they have an entire HR compliance department. There are small companies that go the way Jaci did with the 1099 route. They hire contractors. And then the rest of us in this are trying to figure out what’s best. And then states are fighting with each other over tax issues: who gets the tax on it. It’s not easy.

Loren Feldman:
Jennifer, while you were in your busy season, we had a trade show issue come up here.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Oooh, okay. Let’s hear it.

Loren Feldman:
Liz had a trade show in Chicago, where she ran into an issue. Liz, tell Jennifer.

Liz Picarazzi:
It was an issue that’s universal for trade shows, so I pretty much knew it would happen there. And that’s that if you bring a lot of a lot of things for your booth as an exhibitor, particularly if they’re heavy and large, like my enclosures are, the bill for me to send it from Brooklyn to Chicago and back—not only shipping, but actually even more importantly, the handling on-site—is ridiculously expensive. Like $4,000. If I would have let things in Chicago go as they were intended to by using the presumably union people there to move my things, it would easily have been $3,000 to $4,000.

So, we came up with this scheme where we shipped it to Jay and his warehouse, and then we used his minivan to take it to—God, I forget the name of the place in downtown Chicago. We kind of brought it up the side door. And even though we have such a big booth, we just kind of snuck it all in there.

Loren Feldman:
Was it the McCormick center?

Liz Picarazzi:
No, Palmer House.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Oh, in a hotel.

Liz Picarazzi:
Yeah, it was at the Palmer House. It was really nice. And I kind of feel bad doing that. But what I don’t love is that if you’re a small business and you’re attending and you’re exhibiting, there are often expenses that you totally don’t account for that pop up. The drayage is one of them, and then the second thing is with the scanners—scanning people that come into your booth.

Some trade shows let you have that as part of your payment. Some of them make you pay. If you have two or three people there, it can get pretty expensive. And I know that everybody needs to make their money a certain way, but I wish that there was more transparency with what your additional costs would be to be an exhibitor.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Well, there’s two things. The first one is material handling and drayage. When you hold a convention, there is a significant cost to it, and exhibitors are subsidizing the costs of getting all those people there. So the benefit to you as an exhibitor is that you may have the opportunity to get 500 to 10,000 of your potential clients in one place. But that’s pretty expensive to do, and so they pass those costs on to the exhibitors in different ways. Your booth is just a small part of the way you’re paying for access to it.

And I think what happens is small companies think, “Well, the booth is the most of it, and then maybe hotel and travel.” Really, the booth is just one part of it, because what happens—and not at hotels as much, but at convention centers—there are union labor costs. And you couldn’t do a convention without labor. They are so needed. Sometimes we have, for some of our trade shows, a call for 300 people. They’re absolutely necessary to do.

But the host organization is not paying for that labor; exhibitors are. And the way it’s being paid is by distribution based on material handling. Or the table that you wanted to rent for two days is $450, or the TV that you wanted to rent is $600 for two days. Because they’re taking all those costs for the labor that’s needed for the entire convention center, and they’re basically dividing it up. Because the host-organizer, whether it’s a for-profit company, a consumer show, or the association, they’re not usually paying that. It’s being divided into chunks for the exhibitors to pay.

So small companies do get hit, especially, Liz, if you have heavy stuff. Absolutely. Material handling and drayage is done based on weight. There are very few ways to get around it. You were able to find a small door at the Palmer House. You’d never be able to do that in a convention center.

The other one is scanning. It’s interesting you talk about that, because it’s called lead retrieval. That’s the technical term. We sell lead retrieval. $200 is pretty cheap. We normally sell it anywhere from $350 to $500. You could use business cards, right? But to be able to scan it to get them into the phones? I love it, because we sell it. It’s fantastic. It’s just easier and better to scan their badge. And the association or the organizer, whoever it is, they don’t want to give up their most prized possession—their list of people: names and emails and phone numbers. And so I think the problem is small businesses think that the exhibit booth price and the travel is all they’re gonna spend. And really, that could be maybe just half of the cost at a trade show.

Liz Picarazzi:
Yeah, that’s what it feels like, and it is unexpected.

Jennifer Kerhin:
I think it’s not clear. I think, to your point, sometimes it’s not very clear. But your booth, the cost may be the cheapest part of the entire aspect of a trade-show experience. You just have to hope or think of the marketing as that the business you’ll get will far exceed the costs of marketing at a trade show.

Liz Picarazzi:
Yes, but I’ll think of it in terms of profit. My margin on the trade show is going to be a lot lower if I pay the drayage. So that’s why I get in there, and I’m like, “You know what? Is this really going to pay off?” For me, with a gigantic and very heavy—I don’t really like the idea of me subsidizing everybody else because my stuff is heavy.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Well, I mean, Liz, that’s just the way it’s set up. That’s the business model. When you are an exhibitor, your booth is just one part of the overall cost of everything. The material handling is an important aspect of it. So I hear you, but that’s not going to change. I think for you, with the hotel, you have better luck with the hotel than you would with a convention center.

Liz Picarazzi:
Well, actually, we’ve done it in both places. I’ll be honest.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Okay, well, I mean, you’ve obviously found the right trade show to go to—and to make sure that it just fits the investment for your marketing plan. It’s not going to change, though. The material handling is something that’s always discussed, but it’s a critical component of being successful. We couldn’t hold a trade show without labor, and most of the time, it’s union labor. We couldn’t do it. And so somehow, that’s got to get paid.

Liz Picarazzi:
Yep. I see the math.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Yep, I hear you. You know, we get those questions and calls all the time. All the time.

Loren Feldman:
Liz, the last time you were here, you told us that you hadn’t been able to do your bear test of your trash enclosures the way you hoped to, but that you had an appointment to try it again. Has that happened? If so, how did it go?

Liz Picarazzi:
So it did happen. And this center is in Montana, and they let us know that they would be testing the enclosure with the bears—this was a couple of weeks ago—and we could watch it from the bear cam, which they have there. So a lot of what I would have seen if I was actually out there, I was able to see with the bear cam. And I also had a videographer there to video the whole thing.

Loren Feldman:
For those who didn’t hear that previous episode, you actually were there and unfortunately were not able to do the test while you were there, because there was a problem with setting up the enclosure, which you thought you would be able to set up. But they insisted on setting it up, and it didn’t go correctly. Do I have that right?

Liz Picarazzi:
Yes. You got that right.

Jennifer Kerhin:
How frustrating.

Liz Picarazzi:
I’ll cut to the chase. There are lots of grizzly bears there. There was going to be, I think, multiple shifts with the bears throughout the day, usually one to two bears over five to six hours. And then that is going to give them time to break into it. Well, the bears tipped over the bin after like two and a half minutes, which was totally surprising to us.

Loren Feldman:
Not broke into it. They tipped it over?

Liz Picarazzi:
Yes, they tipped it over, but then they were able to get in from the top. So the doors that are normally on the side, once the bears tipped it over, were then on the top, and then they were able to get on top of it and break into it. But the tip is what the real issue is. All trash enclosures, particularly bear-resistant, need to be anchored to the ground. It’s a guideline in anything you’ll see. You’ll see it’s a guideline with the Interagency Grizzly Bear Committee. They did not fasten the enclosure to the ground, and it seemed that they also didn’t level it.

So I guess what I could say about this is that I failed the test. But I’m not sure if I really failed it. I really wish that I failed the test, and I knew I failed it. That feeling of, “I don’t really know if this was a legitimate test,” really has gotten to me. Because that leveling part and the anchoring is so important. It’s what we do. It’s what all of the other enclosures that they’ve tested do.

So I’m at a point right now where I need to decide: Am I going to test this again if I can’t be assured that it will be anchored? So I’m thinking that if they can’t assure me that it will be anchored, I don’t know if I’m going to test it, and particularly not at that place.

Loren Feldman:
I guess the real issue here is: Who is setting it up? I mean, if they let you set it up on your own, you would be able to do it precisely the way you want to.

Liz Picarazzi:
You know, I’m moving past it, honestly. There’s another place called the Wildlife Management Institute where you can test with black and brown bears, and it’s actually in Florida at a zoo. And we’re going to work to have it tested there. But I am going to make sure in advance that it can be anchored, because if it can’t mimic the true situation as it would be in a residence, then I’m going to fail again. I mean, I don’t know for sure, because Grizzlies are a lot bigger and stronger than black and brown bears.

Loren Feldman:
But you can still market these products as bear-resistant, I think you told us. Is that right?

Liz Picarazzi:
Yes, we can. We just cannot put the IGBC-certified kind of label on it. So, I mean, we continue to sell bear resistant-trash enclosures. We’ve been selling them for about three years now. I would never say “bear-proof.” And I would never say “certified bear-resistant.” But yes, we are still in the process of getting certified.

Loren Feldman:
We’re just about out of time, but I want to hit one more thing before I let you go. I recently highlighted a story in the Morning Report that reported that up until 35 years ago, there were still laws on the books requiring women entrepreneurs to have a male relative cosign on a business loan. I hate to admit it, but that took me by surprise. Is that just my ignorance? Or are any of you surprised by that as well?

Jennifer Kerhin:
I am not surprised one bit. I have a great story to tell you. My husband and I, we’ve been married 29 years. He is a very charming person, and he loves to go in person to the bank. I’ve never gone. I hate going in person anywhere. I’d like to do everything by email and phone, if I could. And he goes to the bank, I don’t know, a couple times a week. It wasn’t that long ago. It was post-COVID. He went in and transferred money from my bank account from my company into our personal account. And they just let him do it.

And I said, “What did you do? Did you have a check by me?” He goes, “No, I just told them I needed to move money over, because we needed a partner distribution.” I said, “How were you able to? You’re not on my bank account for my business. You’re not on my business. I’m 100 percent owner.” This was not a little bit of money. This was like a couple thousand dollars. “How did you do it?” “Oh, I know the ladies at the bank.”

I walked into that bank. We’re happily married. I said, “How do you know we weren’t in the middle of divorce proceedings? How do you know that? Why did you let anyone take money out of my …?” “Well, he’s your husband.” These are women, bank managers themselves. I about had a fit, that that was allowed. And I don’t think it was allowed. I think it was just, you know, a small town. He was a nice guy, charming. I think if I tried to take money out of my husband’s bank account, nobody would have let me. But it was certainly fine that he was able to do it.

Jaci Russo:
I’ve got another one for you. How about I’m getting a whole home generator installed so when our electricity goes out, we won’t lose power. And the salesperson, who very much wants this five-figure check from me, tells me that in order for him to come over to the house to walk me through how the process is going to work, give me their proposal so I can sign it, so they can install it, that I’ll need to make sure my husband is there so that he can sign the contract.

And I said, “Excuse me, I can sign a contract.” And he said, “Well, we just find it better if the gentleman of the house is there to finally approve it, in case you don’t explain it properly to him of how it works.” And I was like, “Okay, you don’t know me and my husband, but he’s a graphic designer who couldn’t figure out how to get through TSA PreCheck today, because he’s flying by himself.” [Laughter]

Jennifer Kerhin:
I hear that.

Jaci Russo:
“He is a brilliant man in his area of expertise. But let me assure you, signing a contract is not his area of expertise. I’ll be picking a different generator company. Thanks.”

Liz Picarazzi:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think with business, I am a little bit surprised like you, Loren, that it was so not that long ago. I would have thought that something like that, with the required signature from the man, would be more like 40 years ago. But we all have examples of this. I know when my husband and I were buying our house, I handled 90 percent of the work from checking out the listings to calling the brokers to going all around and negotiating.

And then we are in the final stretch. The real estate guy was like, “Can I speak with your husband?” And I was like, “Why?” “Well, I want to make sure that he’s on the same page with everything.” And I was like, “My husband knows nothing about what’s going on with this. And we’re both okay with it. So when it comes time to sign something, yes, he’ll be there. But in order to have a conversation related to the sale of this house, no, he doesn’t need to be here.”

And I made it very clear. And I was really irritated. That was a while ago. That was almost 20 years ago, but still, I found that surprising. I felt like, “Really, who does that?” He was like a 25-year-old guy. Maybe it was because he was young, but you would think he would be more progressive since he was younger. So yeah, it still happens.

Loren Feldman:
We started with the bank example. On a somewhat related note, I’m curious: Liz or Jaci, we’ve been reading a lot of stories about a credit crunch. Are you having trouble with lines of credit or loans or anything along those lines?

Liz Picarazzi:
I have not, but I just got my line increase about two months ago. And I think that if it had been later than that, I might have had more trouble. But for us, it was increasing our line. And it was based on our 2022 tax returns.

Jaci Russo:
We built up a savings account over the past 23 years that I treat like a line of credit. And so I am still continuing to loan to myself.

Loren Feldman:
I like that. Do you give yourself a good rate?

Jaci Russo:
I have a great rate.

Loren Feldman:
All right, my thanks to Jennifer Kehrin, Liz Picarazzi, and Jaci Russo—and to our sponsor, the Great Game of Business, which helps businesses use an open-book management system to build healthier companies. You can learn more at greatgame.com. Thanks, everybody.