Marketing Workshop: Selling Cookies on LinkedIn
Introduction:
This week, Shawn Busse and Loren Feldman are doing something a little different. This is the first in a series of episodes we’re calling Marketing Workshops. In an attempt to confront one of the biggest pain points business owners face, we’re offering a series of conversations with owner-operators about their marketing experiences: what’s worked and what hasn’t. We’re starting with Grayson Hogard, co-founder of Grove Cookie Company. For Grayson and his wife, Marie, the company is a bootstrapped side hustle, but in a very short time they’ve come to some very smart conclusions about their marketing that might seem counterintuitive at first. Most importantly, they’ve figured out that the most effective sales channel for their cookies is, of all places, LinkedIn.
— Loren Feldman
Guests:
Grayson Hogard, co-founder of Grove Cookie Company.
Shawn Busse is CEO of Kinesis.
Producer:
Jess Thoubboron is founder of Blank Word Productions.
Full Episode Transcript:
Loren Feldman:
Hello, everyone, welcome to the 21 Hats Podcast. I’m your host, Loren Feldman. Today we’re doing something a little different. I’m here with Shawn Busse, CEO of Kinesis, which is based in Portland, Oregon, and works with small businesses on marketing, culture, and strategy. And this is the first in a series of episodes Shawn and I are calling Marketing Workshops. Shawn, remind me again, why are we doing this?
Shawn Busse:
Yeah, Loren, thanks. Thanks so much. This is our 23rd year in business at Kinesis, and our customer pretty much that whole time has been the owner-operated business. And one of the things I’ve noticed is that marketing is probably on the top three list of struggles that business owners have. And when I searched the landscape for, “Hey, where’s the good advice?” and, “Who can help these folks?”, it tends to fall into categories that don’t help the business that’s doing well and has figured some stuff out, but isn’t a large corporation.
The owner-operator who’s rolling up her sleeves and getting to work every day, is maybe responsible for sales, maybe responsible for marketing, there’s not a lot of great resources out there for that person. And I’ve picked up a few things over the years, and I’ve also got some great people in my network who I’ve learned a lot from. And I think when we bring those stories to the front, I think they can help people.
Loren Feldman:
My experience has been very similar to that. Talking to business owners, there’s just so much confusion out there. The idea here is to workshop it, to talk to business owners and entrepreneurs about what they’ve tried, what’s working for them, what’s not.
And with that in mind, today, we’re going to be talking to Grayson Hogard, who is co-founder of Grove Cookie Company. He’s figured out that the most effective sales channel for his cookies is, of all places, on LinkedIn, which is kind of intriguing. How’d you get to know Grayson?
Shawn Busse:
Yeah, so if you know me, I’m a big LinkedIn fan. In my customer base, we’re only in the B2B space. We only work with businesses that are trying to sell to other businesses. I’ve been doing LinkedIn for a long time, but especially when the pandemic hit, I was like, “Oh, boy, this is gonna be even more important than ever.”
And so I was really investing a lot of time and energy into LinkedIn in the last few years, and I’m pretty sure Grayson popped up in my network at one point or another. But then I heard from him directly. He reached out to me with a solicitation. But he did it in such a savvy, smart way that I actually paid attention to it. And I cannot tell you, Loren, how many solicitations I get every day. I mean, dozens, dozens, dozens, daily, between email and LinkedIn. And yet somehow this broke through the noise, and then the more I paid attention to what he was doing, just kind of watching him, I was like, “This guy’s got some stuff figured out.” I mean, there’s something going on here.
Loren Feldman:
Anything in particular you’re hoping to hear from him?
Shawn Busse:
Yeah, for sure. You know, I get a lot of folks asking me what to do on LinkedIn. So what I’m hoping to learn from Grayson is: What’s his flavor of LinkedIn? How does he use it?
Loren Feldman:
All right. As usual, this episode is brought to you by our principal sponsor, the Great Game of Business. Let’s get started.
Welcome, Grayson. Tell us a little about how you got into this. How did you get started in the cookie business?
Grayson Hogard:
Well, it wasn’t a lifelong dream, but it just happened. So we launched, we’re two years old. We actually just celebrated our second anniversary.
Loren Feldman:
Congratulations.
Grayson Hogard:
Thank you. We launched in January of 2021. And yeah, this whole thing started because, well, obviously, in 2020, we had the go-around, and my wife had been working from home. I had just started a new position, and I started working from home, and you had a little extra time on your hands. And really, a side hustle was born.
Shawn Busse:
I’m kind of curious, in terms of, there’s a lot of business models you could do. You could make rice krispie treats. You could mow lawns. I mean, there’s a lot of things you can do as a side hustle. How did you settle on this idea?
Grayson Hogard:
So my wife in November of 2020—she’s not a baker, let’s point that out first and foremost. She doesn’t like to cook. She doesn’t like to bake. My dad asked her to make some cupcakes that he really liked, and Marie nailed it. She did a great job, and everyone was just raving about it.
And I think the encouragement side of baking came out of like, “Wow, you’re really good, Marie. Thank you so much for making them.” So December and November rolls around. And she’s like, “I think I’m going to try to make cookies.” Again, like I said, no baking experience.
Shawn Busse:
How does she get to become an adult and never had made cookies? How does that happen? [Laughter]
Grayson Hogard:
It’s one of those funny things, and I’ve always been a cookie snob. I just like soft cookies. That’s it. There’s no need for frosting. There’s no need for extra toppings. It’s like, give me a soft cookie.
So she went to Google and started tinkering with some recipes she found, and landed on this one recipe, and the recipe was an Oreo cookie. What we currently have on our menu is the Oreo cookie. She tweaked some things, put her own little twist on it, and literally, I took a bite out of it after it had cooled from the oven. I’m like, “Wow, this is completely soft from the outside to the inside.” And like I said, I’m a big cookie snob when it comes to soft cookies. I was like, “Wow, these are really good.”
And so getting that positive reinforcement from me now, and I really think she just really enjoyed that side of it: Seeing people happy again with baking. And then the cookies were kind of born from there. Friends and family had them. We took them to family dinners for Christmas. And it was just one of those things. It’s like, you just keep getting told, “Wow, these cookies are good. They’re good. Wow, these cookies are good.”
And so my wife was like, “I think we should sell these.” And I was like, “Sure. What are you thinking?” She’s like, “Well, people can come pick it up from the house.” I’m like, “Perfect. Let’s do it.” And so I spent the whole weekend, got the LLC, the EIN number, bank accounts, website, logo, kind of the whole thing, literally in a weekend. I had it done on Sunday and started on Friday. So that’s how it was born.
Shawn Busse:
It sounds like I’m getting a hint here that, maybe, part of your superpower is execution?
Grayson Hogard:
I like to think that. I love to do it. I like to see it start to finish, all done, clean my hands of it. And there you go. Here’s your product.
Shawn Busse:
I mean, you spun up a business in a weekend, right? That’s pretty interesting. So how did you then go from, “Hey, we’re gonna sell cookies out of our house,” to, “We’re a B2B thank-you appreciation gift company”?
Grayson Hogard:
Well, we quickly realized that no one really wants to come to someone’s townhouse to pick up cookies. [Laughter]
Loren Feldman:
Was it market research that made that determination? [Laughter]
Grayson Hogard:
Well, you just have these visions of—you know, you see it on Instagram. You’re like, “Man, these people are killing it. Oh my gosh, it’s so easy. Just post a photo and people just come knocking,” and it just doesn’t work like that. So I’ve been really blessed to have a strong network that I never—I wouldn’t say worked for—but they’ve just been my friends my whole entire life. I’ve had the same group of friends since kindergarten, and all through middle school, high school, and forever and ever.
So we actually took these cookies to my buddy’s house. Him and his dad have a really well-established wealth advisory firm in Lake Oswego, Oregon. And we took the cookies over there just so they could try them—not with any idea of, “Yeah, we’re going to start using them as client appreciation gifts.” But they loved them. We actually left the whole box. This is a Sunday.
And then on Monday, my buddy Matt emailed me. He’s like, “Do you think you could ship these cookies to our office?” And I was like, “Sure. My background’s in warehousing and logistics. And so I’m a little confident in my shipping and packaging abilities. And it’s so funny when I think about it. So yeah, I packaged them, did the whole logistics side of it, had them shipped there as next-day delivery. He FaceTimed me, and he’s like, “I’m opening the box right now.” And he opens the box. The cookies are perfectly in their little plastic sleeve. Yeah, so that’s when it was born, that B2B-gifting-strategy angle.
Shawn Busse:
What month was this? So you start the business in January, and when did you kind of make this pivot or realization?
Grayson Hogard:
End of February. [Laughter] So this is what’s crazy: They have a really big book of business, lots of clients, and they are huge on touch points. So I’m actually a client of theirs, and I get birthday cards. Every quarter, I’m getting some sort of card, like XYZ. And so they actually intertwined us into their birthday send-out strategy. So we got 500 to 600 clients just from that, because they’re sending birthdays. And yeah, you just see it, right? It’s plain as day if you didn’t see it. “Wow, this is the better model from doing this from the house.” So that’s how that kind of took shape.
Shawn Busse:
So, real typical. A lot of businesses get started on the friends and family model. You reach out to friends, see if they’ll buy something from you. You get a positive response. And then, a lot of businesses struggle at that point, because they don’t know how to get past how to sell to people in their network. But you’ve clearly done that. So take us through that journey. How did you start to get customers that you’d never met before?
Grayson Hogard:
Well, after three months of working with my buddy’s firm, I was at a bachelor party. And all my friends are making fun of me as the cookie dealer. Funniest thing ever. And my buddy, Matt—the same guy—he goes, “Why don’t you call other wealth advisors? We all do the same things. We send client-relationship gifts, client touch points.” And I was just thinking to myself, I’m like, “Huh? That’s a really genius idea.” And I’ve kind of just been outgoing. I really don’t mind calling someone out of the blue.
In doing that, it just so happened that across the hallway from my buddy’s dad’s wealth advisory firm, is another wealth advisor firm. Well, this other wealth advisory firm—after stopping in there three times—agreed to start utilizing us as their client-engagement company. And so then we started shipping them, so we had our second client within a week and a half.
Loren Feldman:
Are you still cooking out of your kitchen, at this point?
Grayson Hogard:
Yeah, we’re still in our house at this point, probably made like 3,000 cookies to that point. So then we acquired our second client. I had listened to a podcast, actually, because I had never been on LinkedIn prior to the cookie adventure. I listened to a podcast in July that had a business-to-business LinkedIn video expert on, and her summary and how I took it was: If you’re a B2B company, and you’re not utilizing LinkedIn, you are missing out on the biggest opportunity ever. And so I got home that day, and I made sure my password and everything worked for my LinkedIn, updated my photo, and I put a new bio in there—you know, cookies, blah, blah, blah. And from there, I just kind of hit the ground running with LinkedIn.
Shawn Busse:
Aside from tuning up your profile—and it seems like you went after the personal brand, as opposed to making it about the Grove Cookie Company in the beginning—what are the other things you did in those early days, since you just got on the platform, and you didn’t have thousands of connections?
Grayson Hogard:
Well, Shawn, you happened to fall right in my little web of connection requests. My real strategy was a connection request, but with a message—not just rapid-fire connection requests. I just think the slightest personalization, and presenting what you’re offering, and why you’re connecting… It’s like meeting a stranger. It’s like, “Hey, why am I meeting you right now?”
That’s how I took it from that strategy of trying to build my following. And I got really lucky that there’s not a lot of cookie companies on LinkedIn. So you start posting photos of cookies, and you talk about cookies, you angle it from the client-appreciation standpoint. B2B gifting was the unlock.
Shawn Busse:
I remember you reaching out to me. I don’t remember exactly how you positioned it, but I do remember it was customized. And I get so many requests, and all of them go in the trash. Because I know that as soon as I accept the request, they’re going to start selling me something. But somehow you broke through that.
Loren Feldman:
He was selling cookies, Shawn. [Laughter]
Shawn Busse:
That helps. That helps. But it was more about what he said. And maybe if you can remember, I don’t know if your script is the same, or if you even have a script. Do you customize every one that you send out?
Grayson Hogard:
I do customize it, very minor in the customization. Really, if you have founder, CEO, VP, or any title in there, I’m gonna offer you a free sample box of cookies in that connection request.
Shawn Busse:
Got it, okay.
Grayson Hogard:
So, I’m coming in there, and my thought is—and I’ve learned this just over the two years—is like I’m basically getting you reciprocating. I’m sending you a connection request, but I’m also sending you a free box of cookies, if you want it.
Loren Feldman:
That’s a good deal.
Grayson Hogard:
I think it’s a very fair deal. You just had to click a button. So, yeah, I actually have the message pulled up. I went into LinkedIn and pulled it up. Do you want me to read it?
Shawn Busse:
Yeah.
Grayson Hogard:
“Hi, Shawn. My name is Grayson. My wife and I founded Grove Cookie Company in Beaverton, Oregon. If you enjoy out-of-this-world, soft, and delicious cookies, we’d love to connect. Let me know if you’d like to try a sample box.” Then I always kind of forward people to our about page, because most people want to see that. And you responded with the funniest thing.
Shawn Busse:
I don’t remember.
Grayson Hogard:
Do you want me to read it?
Shawn Busse:
I don’t remember. [Laughter]
Loren Feldman:
Yes, please.
Grayson Hogard:
Shawn goes, “Hey, Grayson, great intro. I get a ton of connection requests and ignore 90 percent of them because they aren’t relevant. Or it’s someone looking to sell me something. But free cookies? Genius. Your timing is funny, too. I was just telling someone that the untapped opportunity is for consumer brands to use LinkedIn for marketing. Anyway, nice to meet you, Shawn.” And from there, you gave me that positive reinforcement. Like, “Oh, this is, like, smart.”
Shawn Busse:
It worked.
Grayson Hogard:
Right, and this was October of 2021.
Shawn Busse:
I don’t know if either of you read the book Influence, by Robert Cialldini, The Psychology of Persuasion.
Loren Feldman:
I have not.
Shawn Busse:
It’s kind of a must-read if you care about marketing. And so, essentially, Grayson said the word “reciprocity,” and that’s a big concept in that book. It’s the idea that, by giving something to somebody without expectation of return, you’re setting up a situation where the person actually will then want to help you. And that’s the reciprocity idea. You see it when you go into Costco, and they give you free food. Anytime somebody gives you something for free, they’re generally leveraging that idea of reciprocity that you will feel some level of obligation to help that person. And I think that’s a really savvy way to do it.
Grayson Hogard:
I literally think about that all the time. I call myself Costco 2.0 on cold calls, because they’re like, “You’re gonna send out free samples?” And I think it’s the funniest thing, but no one’s really laughed at it. But that’s exactly how I modeled that whole thought process of sending samples. So one of the crazier things that we’ve just eclipsed—in two years, mind you—is we’ve shipped or delivered 500 sample boxes of cookies in two years. So you talk about trying to accelerate, and I’m talking about that organic side of things, that’s how we’ve been able to accelerate it.
Shawn Busse:
Have you tracked—like, “Of the 500, our conversion rate to an actual customer is 10 percent, 5 percent, 50 percent”?
Grayson Hogard:
I don’t have accurate data, because I changed the way I was tracking it from using HubSpot to then moving it to Shopify. But I would say it’s about 15 percent. Actually, the beauty of what we’re trying to do is to create that lifetime value client, who is going to utilize us throughout the year, and the next year, and the year after that.
Shawn Busse:
I don’t know what it costs you to send out a box, but let’s say it’s 10 bucks. Let’s just say round numbers, 10 percent. So you’ve basically secured 50 customers for $5,000. And then you can start to do the analysis on: How frequently do those customers buy from you? What’s the value of them? And it’s not the year one value, right? It’s year two, three, four, all compounded together. I’m guessing you’re still too early-days to have all that information at your fingertips, because it’s moving so fast.
Grayson Hogard:
Yes, so I could really benefit from some data cleanup. We do a good job. Obviously, we have Shopify. They do a fantastic job of taking down numbers for me. One of the cool back-end things of Shopify is they have cohorts. So if someone buys in July, it will track them for the next six months to see what their percentage of buying again is.
Shawn Busse:
Oh, wow. Okay.
Grayson Hogard:
Yeah, it’s so cool. So we’ve been hovering like at 14 percent, and that’s through a six-month period.
Shawn Busse:
14 percent of what? Can you explain what that means?
Grayson Hogard:
14 percent returning customer rate.
Shawn Busse:
Okay, so they buy from you once, 14 percent of them will return to you.
Grayson Hogard:
Correct. That’s over six months.
Shawn Busse:
Over just six months, right.
Grayson Hogard:
Yeah, so it jumps to 14, it goes down, goes up, goes down, goes up. It’s really cool, I’ve got to do a LinkedIn post on it. Because I think it’s the most fascinating thing ever. It’s all this data. Shopify is the best. So if you’re trying to start a business that’s selling something online: Shopify, number one.
Shawn Busse:
What’s really cool, too, is you’re taking an industry, B2B sales, and you’re applying the tools of B2C sales to that industry. And now you’re starting to get information that informs your decision-making around marketing and sales efforts.
Grayson Hogard:
Correct.
Loren Feldman:
Grayson, do you know what percentage of your sales are B2B versus B2C?
Grayson Hogard:
We just opened up local delivery and pickup here from our shop in Tigard, Oregon. So we’ve seen a little uptick in DoorDash delivery. But over 90 percent is going to be client gifting.
Loren Feldman:
And what do you charge for a box of cookies?
Grayson Hogard:
With shipping, for six cookies, it’s $25. But that includes our big selling point, the customized note card with the logo—like Shawn saw that with the Kinesis logo. And that is the value add, that separates us from any one cookie company on the market right now.
Shawn Busse:
What’s the competitive landscape like, Grayson? And how do you think about it?
Grayson Hogard:
I really don’t pay too much attention to it. Because I don’t have enough time to look it up. I do my best to hear the feedback, right? Like, I’m really big on just following up. So I just hear what our customers are saying. And it’s always the same thing: “The cookies are soft, and we absolutely love the note.” So that’s the best part about sending samples, is we get this unfiltered feedback, especially from B2B clients.
From a competitive landscape, there’s just no one that’s putting notes outside of a packing slip, if you’re familiar with that. Like, you receive a gift online, it’s on the packing slip, size-four font. I think a few other cookie companies put it in bold now, but you know, there’s just nothing to it. Whereas our note’s right on top of the cookie. You see it right when you get it. There’s no question about, “Who sent me this gift?” The worst part about gifting is not knowing if the client even figured out who sent it to him.
Shawn Busse:
One of the things you just pointed out, which I think is worth highlighting—and I hadn’t thought about it—I was thinking about your 500 sample cookies as $5,000 for new customers. But actually, you could take that cost and say it’s actually market research, too. You’re sort of figuring out what people respond to in that space.
Grayson Hogard:
That is a fantastic point.
Shawn Busse:
You’ve built a model in which you get a two-for-one. You’re acquiring customers, which is the job of marketing, and you’re also getting market research, which is also the job of marketing. But they’re usually thought of as two different line items and costs and activities.
Loren Feldman:
Grayson, did you hit on the idea of giving out free samples this way right from the beginning? I mean, that’s kind of a time-tested strategy, but it usually happens in a supermarket or a Costco or something. You have an interesting twist on it. Was that always the idea? Or how did you come up with it?
Grayson Hogard:
Well, it really came from my insecurity of cold calling, because I had never done it before. And my thought was, “Okay, if I can get out in the first two minutes or so that, ‘We love sending free samples, and this is an interesting opportunity for you’”—that’s how it was all born. And plus, because we’re so heavily involved with the wealth advisory community, I think they’re going to be more hesitant to send their clients gifts without trying them anyways.
Loren Feldman:
I find it really interesting, because especially during the early days of the pandemic, there were a lot of brands that talked about how they were stymied, because their marketing strategy was to give away free samples in a store setting, and that venue was just shut down. That wasn’t an option anymore. And it never would have occurred to me to just reach out to people on LinkedIn and do it that way instead.
Grayson Hogard:
Yeah, it just happened that way, and we haven’t stopped doing it. Just like Shawn kind of alluded to, it provides us instantaneous feedback of how we’re doing. So I did a follow-up call from samples we sent out last week, and two wealth advisor firms were like, “We were blown away. The packaging was great. I would absolutely love the note with our logo on it.” Because I don’t tell people the sample I’m sending will have their logo on it. I just tell them, “We’re gonna send a sample box.” And so yeah, it’s just instantaneous feedback that we really enjoy.
Shawn Busse:
And you’re delighting the customer with something they don’t expect, which is always a winner, in terms of delight and sticking with you and wanting to learn more. That’s a great strategy.
Loren Feldman:
You’ve kind of given us a snapshot of where you are now. Where would you like to be? What do you imagine this looking like in two years, say? And how are you going to get there?
Grayson Hogard:
That’s a fantastic question. Two years is pretty quick, but it took us two years to get out of the house and into our own shop. So things happen extremely fast. But ideally, we have this nationwide presence. And really, with that comes just bigger space, more awareness. And that’s where I kind of talked about that organic versus paid marketing: More awareness of what we offer as a client-gifting experience.
So in two years, ideally, it would be, regionally we’re known, and then nationally, making that presence more felt. That’s our two-year goal. And that’s the beauty of where we’re at with our setup right now. Really, it’s not a matter of creating more shops. That capital investment just isn’t necessary. Really, it’s just bigger equipment.
Shawn Busse:
So you think you can scale with bigger equipment versus adding a lot more people?
Grayson Hogard:
Correct, yes. There’s the automation machinery side of things. So everything is hand-scooped right now. But there are dough dividers that are very, very cool. I’ve seen videos of them. And so now, you 10x with two people, and it’s all from just one machine.
So it’s just those types of things. You get a bigger mixer, so now your yield’s more. That’s how scaling with e-commerce is so lucrative and so appealing, versus trying to potentially franchise, getting more concepts in place. And plus we’re bootstrapped. So you have those parameters of capital. So that’s really our two-year vision.
Loren Feldman:
Well, take us through your thinking on the marketing that’s going to expand the awareness of what you do, regionally and nationally. It’s all LinkedIn, you’re not messing with other platforms?
Grayson Hogard:
We have Instagram. We post plenty there, but just because of our business-to-business client-gifting approach, the market is right there. With the paid side of things, I’ve been hearing a lot, like, if you can’t figure it out organic, your paid ain’t gonna work either. So what’s fun is, I’ve kind of figured out not to get too far ahead of my skis. But I figured out that cadence for organic.
So what you can do on top of the positive organic outreach you’re doing, you can boost. You can start boosting posts, and then you can go into ad creative. But you can like boost posts and target those to everyone with founder in their name. You know how that works with this digital advertising. So that’s really trying to figure out how to maximize that.
Loren Feldman:
Can you walk us through the boosting process a little bit? How much money are you spending? And how do you target it?
Grayson Hogard:
Well, that’s the hardest part that I don’t know.
Shawn Busse:
Zero dollars right now!
Grayson Hogard:
Zero dollars right now. Exactly.
Loren Feldman:
Oh, you haven’t played with it at all. You haven’t boosted it all yet.
Grayson Hogard:
Not LinkedIn, at all. Meta—Facebook, Instagram—is very simple. I imagine LinkedIn is pretty simple. It’s just a matter of coming up with a real game plan with Facebook, Meta—I have a game plan. Don’t get me wrong. But it’s that marketing presence, paid versus organic, that I’m figuring out our next steps in.
Shawn Busse:
You seem like an incredibly adept DIY guy. Do you anticipate continuing to DIY that kind of work? Or do you say, “Well, I’m really good at the organic stuff, maybe I bring in somebody to help me on the paid stuff”? Or do you just feel like I’ve got to figure it out myself?
Grayson Hogard:
You know, we talked a little about budget. And some firms, agencies, charge quite a bit. So it’s a matter of kind of keeping those costs in line. And that’s where the DIY keeps those costs very low, minus my time. I’ve definitely fielded phone calls on how those all work, but they all seem to be kind of the same to me. It all revolves around SEO, kind of all this stuff.
So I’ve had reports drawn up, because people are trying to pitch me to work with them. I love seeing the data they provide me because they show me my SEO is really good. And I’m like, “Fantastic! Thank you so much.” Because I don’t know how to research that. I can type in Google “Grove Cookie Company,” and I’ll pop up.
Shawn Busse:
So you are now the recipient of free things, right? Folks are coming to you and saying, “We’ve done an analysis on your social media. And here’s a report we’ve generated, and we think we could help you improve it.” So they’re giving you something for free. It’s a free box of cookies, but you’re not buying. You’re like, “Nope.”
Tell us a little bit more about why you think that is. Do you think that’s where you’re at in your business’s growth? Like, “We just don’t have a ton of free money sitting around, so I know I can’t afford this”? Do you think it’s a mindset? Like, “I really want to understand this myself before I hire somebody to do it, and I may never hire anybody to do it”? Where’s your brain on that one?
Grayson Hogard:
Well, I think the mindset portion of it is huge. It’s almost like, you could classify it as a scarcity mindset. But it’s also like, you have your own money riding on the line, so you’re going to be a little more hesitant. Especially this being our first journey in entrepreneurship. So there’s that. And then obviously not having, you know, $3,000 a month to hand off to someone. But also, I am huge on the fulfillment side of things. And that is my biggest fear: Not being able to fulfill our product to the standards we are known for.
So my thought is, “Okay, now you start putting some gasoline on the fire”—a lot of wishful thinking, in a sense—“how do I get that on the backend with our systems and processes?” You have quite a few things affecting my decision on working with an outside agency. And those are just things I’m kind of working on.
I haven’t really talked about this yet, but we’ve had a business strategist working with us since November of 2021. That’s been huge. I talked about systems and processes. Before November 2021, I didn’t know what a system and process really meant, outside of using those at my corporate job. So she’s been a blessing.
Loren Feldman:
Were you looking for a strategist? Or did you just happen to connect with her? How did that happen?
Grayson Hogard:
It’s all for the love of cookies. We actually first met her back in 2021. We were doing some events, almost like a farmers market. But this was called Cars and Coffee, here in the Portland metro area, where all the people with the cool cars come and open the hoods. There are hundreds of people there, and we just had networked our way into being a vendor there. And that’s how we actually met our coach, because she came and had one of our cookies. And she’s like, “Wow, these are really good.”
And anyway, she kind of just introduced herself, and then we ran into her again at the Porsche dealership. So by chance, I got invited to be a vendor at the Porsche dealership here in our area, and she happens to have a Porsche. Anyways, we reconnected and I was like, “We’re actually really looking for a business strategist of sorts to guide us in the right direction,” because things were picking up. And so she had me read E-Myth and then reach out to her.
Shawn Busse:
So in one area, you’re like, “I want to DIY. I want to figure things out. I don’t want to pay for it.” And then in another area, you’re like, “I’m so stoked that I hired this person, and it’s really helped us out.” What do you think the difference is?
Grayson Hogard:
After reading E-Myth, and then more podcasts—I’ve been a big podcast junkie, if you will, in the entrepreneur mindset space—you can’t grow, you can’t scale, without systems and processes. So really, that was my whole side of… Because my whole personality is driven on just doing what I say I’m going to do.
Shawn Busse:
Is this a learned habit? Or is this something like, ever since you’re a kid, you’re just like, “I say what I’m going to do. I do it.” I see you’ve got a military background. People I know from the military, they’re very much about that.
Grayson Hogard:
I think, just growing up, I was just always around friends, family, and they asked me to do something or whatever, I would just do it. Make sure it’s done. That kind of moved its way just growing up, and then it obviously transitioned really well into the military, because you just get patted on the back when you go follow orders. That is like fuel to my fire.
And then with my corporate job, a lot of people just don’t seem to have that kind of connectivity with completing something someone asked you to do. So just through my corporate experience as well, it’s just kind of reinforced. If you say, you’re going to do something, you need to do it. One hundred percent.
Loren Feldman:
Do you have a goal for when you want to walk away from that corporate job?
Grayson Hogard:
Yeah, I’d really like to do it at the end of this year. That’s the goal I have. I wrote it down. So that’s really how we’re kind of positioned. My wife still has her corporate job.
Loren Feldman:
You guys are busy.
Grayson Hogard:
Yeah, I mean, it’s no joke. I mean, it’s a lot. But it’s part of the journey, aAnd that’s what we signed up for.
Shawn Busse:
I’m wondering, Loren, if this is maybe a good point to kind of wrap things up.
Loren Feldman:
Go for it.
Shawn Bussie
Really great marketing is often about the idea of beating the drum, being consistent, doing something, figuring it out. I think of it as a good habit, so I’d be curious if you could share with our listeners what you think is your good habit. What’s your winning habit that’s allowed you to be successful, and to scale, and maybe even leave your corporate gig and get into this thing full-time?
Grayson Hogard:
It would be really difficult for me to say LinkedIn has not been a blessing. So that’s allowed that whole putting yourself out there networking, marketing in itself, as really easy, from my point of view. And with that, if you’ve ever heard the term of “the lurkers,” 95 percent of LinkedIn is lurkers. The other 5 percent creates content. So I just have found this sweet spot where I really enjoy the content making of LinkedIn.
So I am committed to doing that twice a week at minimum. And that’s where that habit, like you just alluded to, has helped me stay top of mind, which is what marketing really is all about, in my opinion—especially when you’re a consumable, like we are. And that’s been really my driving point with this whole entire endeavor: Stay consistent. Enjoy it, don’t make it a job, and be open to meeting people.
Loren Feldman:
Grayson, you don’t have to answer this question if you don’t want to. But if the listeners of this podcast would like a free box of cookies, what should they do? [Laughter]
Grayson Hogard:
Well, find me on LinkedIn. Let’s chat. Find me on LinkedIn: Grayson Hogard. I’m like the only one on LinkedIn with that name. so pretty proud of it.
Loren Feldman:
All right.
Grayson Hogard:
Yeah, we love just sending cookies because, really, enhancing relationships one cookie at a time is really our motto. That’s what we really prioritize in our whole entire business. So we love connecting with people, and we don’t ever go, “Mm, yeah, I don’t think you’d be the right fit.” So really anyone asks, I’d do it.
Loren Feldman:
All right, thanks, Grayson.
Grayson Hogard:
Thank you, Loren and Shawn. I really, really appreciate it, and like I said, I’m really honored to be on the podcast.
Loren Feldman:
All right, Shawn. So now that Grayson is gone, and it’s just the two of us, what do you think?
Shawn Busse:
Oh man, I couldn’t have had a more invigorating, fun first interview. What I loved about Grayson is, he’s in the relatively early days of his business. But in a two-year time period, he’s probably done five years worth of work. I mean, this guy—
Loren Feldman:
While keeping a corporate job. I mean, this is still a side hustle for him!
Shawn Busse:
Right! And his wife, who’s also working in the business. They’re both doing this as a side hustle. And my prediction: They’re gonna outgrow that real fast. So, I’d say lesson number one from today’s interview is: The execution, speed, figuring out the right channel and the right message is just unbeatable. I mean, he’s just really impressive, in that regard. What did you think, Loren?
Loren Feldman:
I was just amazed at how quickly they figured out who they are and what they’re doing. You know, they’re selling cookies, and they picked an untraditional route to do it. And maybe there was some luck involved—there always is. You know, he was fortunate enough to have a friend in the wealth advisory business, and that led to him figuring out that client gifting would be an opportunity. But it’s only luck if you seize the day, and boy, did they seize the day. They realized that this was the way they wanted to go. And then, as if that wasn’t enough, they figured out that they can sell the cookies on LinkedIn. And to do that so quickly is just really impressive to me.
Shawn Busse:
Yeah, that’s a really good point. I was thinking about how Grayson is doing something that I see very sophisticated and larger businesses really lose sight of, which is: He knows his customer. And he’s learned more and more and more about that customer with every step. And as he builds more and more knowledge, he adjusts the business and makes it more attuned to what that customer needs. So he’s just kind of constantly tuning the machine.
That also ties in to another piece that we talked about a bit in there, which is part of his strategy of giving away free cookies. It’s such a winner, in terms of customer acquisition. You’re gonna get some business by doing that, but it’s also such a win in terms of insights and learning from those customers and potential customers. Super smart.
Loren Feldman:
Is there anything that concerns you? Do you see any potential pitfalls ahead for him?
Shawn Busse:
Yeah, I mean, I’d say there’s the realm of, I always ask the question, “How easy is it to replicate this business to where there might become competition?” I think he’s okay there for a while. I often find it’s one thing to say we’re going to copy a business. It’s a whole other thing to be good at execution on the copying. And I think that’s his superpower, is able to move so fast. It’s going to be hard for people to catch him.
I think from a persona perspective, the piece of advice I might give Grayson, if he were interested, would be to just keep an eye on that DIY propensity, that desire to kind of do a little bit of everything. He’s the guy who figured out, “Yay, we’re gonna plug in Shopify,” which is a B2C, kind of consumer-centric platform, “and we’re going to use it in a B2B environment.” I mean, that’s genius. And he’s looking at the analytics, and he’s getting to know what’s working and what’s not. I think that’s a really awesome skill. And I’ve also seen that, the shadow side of it is knowing when to bring in outside help. I am optimistic, though. When he did talk about bringing in a consultant, he brought in a business consultant.
Loren Feldman:
Already.
Shawn Busse:
Already. Yeah. And that, to me, tells me, “I think this guy’s on the right path.”
Loren Feldman:
All right, my thanks to Grayson Hogard of Grove Cookie Company and to Sean Busse of Kinesis—and of course, to our sponsor, the Great Game of Business, which helps businesses implement open-book management and employee ownership. You can learn more at greatgame.com.
