She Still Packs Every Order as if It’s a Gift

Introduction:

This week, we welcome another new voice to the 21 Hats podcast: Channon Kennedy, who takes us inside the side hustle that’s become her second full-time job. Channon is the inventor and patent holder of the Morgan Square, a clever measuring tool—here’s a demonstration—that’s racking up awards, expanding its distribution, and carving out space for a woman founder in a traditionally male-dominated industry. This is a true bootstrap story. Channon’s numbers are modest enough that she still does most of her own fulfillment at night after her day job as a banker—and she loves it. “Every time I get an order,” she tells Paul Downs and Lena McGuire, “I feel like I’m wrapping a Christmas present. I’m just so excited that somebody wants something that I’ve created.” Plus: Paul checks in with an update. After posting his best year ever in 2024, he was blindsided when sales suddenly stalled earlier this year, forcing him to lay off a third of his employees. Sales have since rebounded, but now he’s staring at a backlog and a different dilemma: Does he hire aggressively to meet the higher demand—or play it safe until he sees how 2026 begins?

— Loren Feldman

Guests:

Channon Kennedy is founder and CEO of Kiwi Vision.

Paul Downs is CEO of Paul Downs Cabinetmakers.

Lena McGuire is CEO of Spóca Kitchen & Bath.

Producer:

Jess Thoubboron is founder of Blank Word.

Full Episode Transcript:

Loren Feldman:
Welcome Paul, Lena, and especially the newest regular on our podcast team, Channon Kennedy. Thanks for joining us, Channon.

Channon Kennedy:
Thank you for having me.

Loren Feldman:
Our pleasure. So Channon, I did a one-on-one podcast with you a couple years ago, but just in case our listeners haven’t committed it to memory, let’s talk about what you do. First of all, you have a day job. You’re a banker. Your full-time job is with the Silicon Valley Bank. What do you do there?

Channon Kennedy:
I am in startup banking. I am a relationship manager at Silicon Valley Bank. I have been with Silicon Valley Bank for about 26 and a half years.

Loren Feldman:
Wow. And relationships with startups—that seems appropriate, given the other reason you’re here on this podcast.

Channon Kennedy:
Absolutely, yes, I do work with founders pre-seed and all the good folks who are starting their journeys.

Loren Feldman:
And what’s your focus with those founders?

Channon Kennedy:
I’m in the startup space of it. So it’s determining what their banking needs are, and then deciding whether or not they may or may not be a fit for the products that are offered.

Loren Feldman:
So you also have a startup, a side hustle. You make a tool called the Morgan Square. What’s a Morgan square?

Channon Kennedy:
So the Morgan Square is a measuring tool that allows you to measure and mark simultaneously. It’s not creating a new way to measure, but it has definitely improved the process of how you measure. So what do they say? Measure twice, cut once. I think I’ve kind of put a little bit of a professional change to that. So it has a universal tape mount that you clip your tape measure on, so that you can then measure and mark two pieces at one time, or in two areas at one time.

Loren Feldman:
So you only have to measure once?

Channon Kennedy:
That’s the goal, reducing materials and speeding up the time it takes to measure a layout.

Loren Feldman:
Channon, how far have you gotten with the Morgan Square? Where’s the business today?

Channon Kennedy:
Oh my goodness, the business today, it is surviving and thriving. That’s the best way that I can put it out there. It has been such a journey—2025 in and of itself has been a wild, exciting, crazy ride.

Loren Feldman:
Give us a few hints. What’s going on?

Channon Kennedy:
So at the beginning of the year, I think it was in February, I had the opportunity to go out to Akron, Ohio, where Hartville Hardware is, and I am actually in the Hartville Hardware store. They happen to be the largest hardware store in America. So they have a tool sale every, I think it’s winter and spring, I believe. So I had the opportunity to go all the way out there and showcase my Morgan Square and also get to see it on the shelves for the first time. So that was really, really exciting.

Then after that, I went to Atlanta to Workbenchcon, where there’s a lot of makers in the community who actually get together and network. That’s where you get your influencers, and people who are just out there trying to showcase their work. In April, I was on NBC Live here in the Bay Area, and I got to showcase my tool in the studio. That was amazing. Never in a million years did I think I’d be inside of a news studio telling my story. And then I had the opportunity to go to Ann Arbor for the first time, to meet you all for 21 Hats, which was just another amazing experience.

Loren Feldman:
It was probably the highlight of your year, I’m guessing.

Channon Kennedy:
It was. [Laughter] It really was, because I gained some great relationships from that trip. What else? I mean, it has just been crazy. That is just the tip of the iceberg. I just recently received the 2025 Pro Innovation Tool Award of the Year for best hand tool. I am now available on homedepot.com. I also found out, I believe I’m in about 75 or 80 Woodcraft stores now as well. So that’s kind of a snapshot of the things that have been going on this year so far, and I’m wrapping up getting ready for the holidays, and I’m just really excited for the trajectory that I’m on.

Lena McGuire:
Channon, that Pro Tool Innovation—is that the Bob Vila award?

Channon Kennedy:
No, that’s separate.

Lena McGuire:
Oh, wow. Everybody knows Bob Vila. Do tell.

Channon Kennedy:
Well, Bob Vila did name the Morgan Square the Best Hand Tool of the Year for 2024. That was a late notification last year. And then I just recently had an article posted sometime this year. I’ve had a few articles from Bob Vila as well, giving it a very high rating.

Loren Feldman:
Have all of these things you’ve told us about had the impact on sales that one would hope?

Channon Kennedy:
They have. So where I am right now is still the exposure. I’m a brand that nobody—I wouldn’t say no one knows that I’m here—but it’s still getting my name out there. So the sales are now coming in a bit more organic, so I’m seeing consistent sales now, which is great.

Loren Feldman:
Can you give us an idea how big those sales are on an annual basis?

Channon Kennedy:
I’ll give you the units so far. I mean, it’s still going for the year, but I think in ‘22, when I first launched it, to 2023, when I met Paul, I had about a thousand. Last year, I sold over 3,000, and I believe I’m set to sell about 5,000 or so this year.

Loren Feldman:
Got it. And how do you manufacture them?

Channon Kennedy:
My manufacturer is based in Santa Clara, California. However, they are officially made in Vietnam.

Loren Feldman:
So that means you’ve been subject to tariffs this year?

Channon Kennedy:
Yes, yes, yes. I have. Yes, yes, I have.

Loren Feldman:
How big a problem has that been?

Channon Kennedy:
I knew that they were coming. You know, it’s been a bit crazy this year, not being able to really know what’s going on or how it’s going to impact. And earlier this year, I did do a price increase to kind of get ahead of it. But most recently, since the—I think it’s a 55-percent tariff on all aluminum and steel—so on my next inventory order, that’s where I’m gonna have to adjust my numbers again to keep up.

Loren Feldman:
Meaning you’re gonna have to raise prices?

Channon Kennedy:
Yes.

Loren Feldman:
Did you think the price increase had an impact on your sales?

Channon Kennedy:
No, surprisingly. Surprisingly, no, it has not.

Loren Feldman:
Channon, what’s your daily routine like? Between your day job and your side hustle, how are you managing this?

Channon Kennedy:
One of the things that I think I’ve done, which has been helpful to me, is I have pretty much mastered time management. So, I mean, I sleep well. There’s plenty of sleep in my life. My husband actually asked me how I sleep so well when I do fall asleep. But I get up early. I’m working on my tasks that I need to do. I work during the day, and then in the evenings, as I have shipments, or what have you, I love to package them. I do have one other person who helps me.

The status of my business is not that it needs immediate attention during the day. I’m online, and so as the sales come in, they just need to be packaged and shipped. Everything else is more about strategizing my marketing and looking to what’s next. I have trade shows set up for next year. So it works out, because I’ve put so much work into it before now. So now I just need to sell it.

Lena McGuire:
Channon, do you have plans for when you hit the trade shows? Because I’m imagining if you go to, like, the International Builder Show—they are doing that in Florida in February—all the builders are there, and if they see your product in action, and all of a sudden you get a slew of orders, are you ready? If you’re packaging them yourself out of the house, are you ready to upscale that?

Channon Kennedy:
Oh, yes, I’m waiting for someone to tell me they would like a few thousand. You know, when that happens, I’ll be able to manage it, the order and the packaging. We’ll just have to figure out what that looks like. It’d be an exciting and stressful time, but I don’t think that that’s anything that will hold us back at all.

Lena McGuire:
Well, it’s a concern for me when people grow too fast, because if you can’t handle it, then you start having disappointed customers. And then your reputation is ruined. So, if you get your ducks in a row ahead of time—which I’m sure you are. You’re very coordinated.

Channon Kennedy:
Yes, I am ready. I like that. I’m ready to go. Just I’m sitting there going, “Who wants a Morgan Square?” I think the last time I had a—I think it was viral. I’ve been viral a few times. I ran out of everything but squares. It was like, “Oh, I still got the squares,” but I had to get ink. I had to get paper.

But now I’m ahead of the game. It’s like you say, when you grow too fast, you can shoot yourself in the foot. But now I know what to expect, and I know what to do. So I think I’d be able to handle it, and also offer up realistic expectations on delivery. So it’s about communication and building those relationships.

Loren Feldman:
How does your relationship with Home Depot work? If somebody orders your product at homedepot.com, do you fulfill that yourself, personally, your very own hands?

Channon Kennedy:
Oh yes. Most of the time, yes, I do have a couple of folks who do help me, but most of the time, yes, it is me. I kind of enjoy it. The volume isn’t so high that I can’t handle it. I’ve got my process down. I’ve got my box, I’ve got my paper. Everything is all ready to go. It’s not like I have to think about it. And I really enjoy it. Every time I get an order, I feel like I’m wrapping a Christmas present. I’m just so excited that somebody wants something that I’ve created. So, yeah, I get the order, ship it out, do some invoicing, and off it goes.

Lena McGuire:
I’m glad you feel that way, because it may not feel that way 10 years from now, but that’s wonderful.

Channon Kennedy:
It may not, but today it does. You got to live in the moment.

Lena McGuire:
Yeah. The other thing I want to ask you is, are you writing down all these processes? Or are they still in your head?

Channon Kennedy:
Oh, no, I have them written down. One of the things in my background, in my day job and just in my corporate life, I’m very familiar with writing procedures and passwords and all that good stuff. So if something were to happen, I have a backup plan so it doesn’t stop.

Lena McGuire:
Yeah, because that’s gonna be very important as you grow.

Channon Kennedy:
Yes, absolutely.

Loren Feldman:
How are you financing your manufacturing, Channon? Are you borrowing money from Silicon Valley Bank? Can you lend yourself money?

Channon Kennedy:
[Laughter] I wish I could, but no, no, I am not. I am not in that realm. I’m not a technology or health care or life science company. I’ve been bootstrapping. That’s what I do. So I’ve been doing that out of pocket for my current version of the squares, which hasn’t been terrible, but I do have another product in the lineup, which I’m considering how I’m going to get funding, because I don’t want to keep bootstrapping. Could I? Yes. But it’s not necessarily this great thing to do, so I am considering crowdfunding for my next product, which is for drywall.

It’s a drywall square for sheetrock. I actually just did a debut of it at the AWFS Fair this year, and the interest is outrageously, outrageously exciting. So I think that if I’m going to do this, I’m going to have to get some funding from somewhere, for sure.

Loren Feldman:
Can you explain why you would need a different kind of tool for drywall?

Channon Kennedy:
Yes, so of all of the trade shows that I’ve been to over the past few years, the DIYers, the woodworkers, the makers, they really enjoy the tool, the Morgan Square, as it is, being compatible with the tape measure. But, at the same time, those folks who are into sheetrock or drywall, they say they don’t do woodworking, and they’re like, “Oh, man, if you had something that could be used for drywall or sheetrock,” which is a larger version…

So the Morgan Square currently is either an eight-inch or a 12-inch. When you have drywall or sheetrock, it’s 24 by 48, and when you do sheetrock, you score the material, which is using a knife, kind of cutting it across freehand, which if you draw a line freehand, I’m pretty sure it’s going to be quite wavy, which leads to waste. So the Morgan Square—I think I’m going to call it the Rocker—it looks just like the Morgan Square. It’s an L-shaped square, but it’s 24 by 48. I have installed slits where you can put your knife inside of it, and you can run it across and have a straight edge. That way you won’t have to cut more material, or you’re using less, and you’re able to do it faster. And it’s collapsable.

Lena McGuire:
I love this already. I can see my guys on the crews using this and really loving it.

Loren Feldman:
Paul, you know something about woodwork. Any questions for Channon?

Paul Downs:
Yeah, you’re a banker. Where did this whole idea come from?

Channon Kennedy:
Oh, this is my favorite part. Okay, so I love telling this story because when I go to these trade shows, it is definitely a conversation piece. Yes, I am a banker. I am a banker through and through. Been doing it a long, long time. So, how did the Morgan Square come up? This is how it came up, and I’ll do my best to do my quick founder’s pitch story.

So I have a friend who lives in New Zealand, and in 2015-2016, I was talking to him just about life. Breast cancer had come through my family. My mother and my sister both got breast cancer. And so when I was talking to my friend just about life, he had shared with me that his son—and I knew he had a son that had passed away from leukemia; he passed away at the age of eight—and he shared with me then that before his son passed away, he had to build him a mobile bicycle to take him outside because he could no longer walk to get fresh air. And he said, “I wish I had a tool to build things faster so I could spend more time with my son.”

Well, first of all, why are you telling me this? And what do you mean? So he was sharing it with me, as, you know, friends always try to help friends. And the reason why he was telling me about this thought process he had is because he thought that maybe I could sell the idea to help take care of my family. So, long story short, I ended up having him explain it to me, because I am a banker. I am not in the woodworking trades. I don’t use my tool in this manner. So once he explained it to me, I ended up coming up with a design. I did a patent search. I did a trademark search. It didn’t exist. And I was like, “Yeah, well, maybe I can sell this thing. Who knows?”

And so I talked to my friend Gary, who is my right hand. Whenever you see me, you’ll see him most of the time at trade shows. I said, “Hey, do you think this is a good idea?” And the reason I asked Gary is because he was a maintenance carpenter in his previous life. So once I did the patent search and learned that it didn’t exist, I filed the patent. I got the patent. I started showing it to woodworkers, cabinetmakers, carpenters. Everybody was like, “What? This hasn’t been done before?” And I was like, “No.” And so when I was looking for a manufacturer, one manufacturer asked me for exclusive manufacturing rights. And I said, “Wait, hold on a moment. What do I have?” So I decided to keep this product, and I named it Morgan after my friend’s son. And the name of my company is called Kiwi Vision, because New Zealand natives are known as Kiwis. Hence, we have the Morgan Square.

Paul Downs:
Okay. That’s a good story. You’ve started to get distribution, which to me, when people invent a device, seems like the hardest thing. I had an employee about 20 years ago who invented a thing that allowed you to reach down into your disposal, in your kitchen sink, with kind of like a gripper device, as opposed to just sticking your hand in there. And he never really got to the point of having distribution, and eventually it disappeared.

So congratulations on getting some outlets. What’s next? Are you going to continue to work your way up the food chain until you’re in Walmart? Or what are you going to do?

Channon Kennedy:
Ah, I love it. Yes, I am going to continue. And it is available on walmart.com. [Laughter]

Paul Downs:
Really?

Channon Kennedy:
Yes, it is. There are a lot of people out there who can utilize my tool. And like I said, I need to keep going and get it into more stores, like Rockler. There’s so many places that it can be in. And I’m starting here in the U.S., because this is what I know. But my tool is also standard in metrics, which the rest of the world uses. So I would love to get it in different—like I am in homedepot.com here, but there are Home Depots in Canada and other places. So the goal is to get it out there and get it in the right stores as well.

I know that it’s a challenge to change how seasoned people in the trades do their woodworking, so I am focusing on the new folks who are coming into the trades, because you can teach them new tricks. So yeah, I’m at it. I just recently had somebody find me. In Canada, they have a school in which they teach young women or women who haven’t had the best lives how to do the trades, such as woodworking, framing, electrical work. So they’ve invited me to speak to their cohorts and talk about this tool. So if I can get this in the right hands and get in the right hands early, I’m pretty sure I can change the game. I’m not trying to replace the speed square. I’m just offering—

Loren Feldman:
What’s a speed square?

Channon Kennedy:
A speed square, you would consider a competitor. So the speed square is that triangular square. I don’t know why it’s called the speed square when it looks triangular, but it doesn’t allow you to measure and mark at the same time.

Loren Feldman:
Along those lines, Channon, I’m curious how much protection does the patent that you got give you. Has anybody tried to knock off your product or create a similar version?

Channon Kennedy:
Not yet. I’ve seen something where people are trying to do the measuring and marking, but I do have a design patent on it, so I haven’t seen anybody making it. I have a new version for wide tape measures now, which are those FatMax versions. They’re really big. That’s not even out there on Amazon or any other stores. You can only get that from me or at Woodcraft. So I haven’t seen anything. I’m trademarked. I’m patented. My face is everywhere. And I think it would be a bit of a challenge for someone to try to—you know they could, but I haven’t seen it yet.

Loren Feldman:
What’s your ultimate goal with the business? Are you hoping to just keep building the business? Or do you want to sell this to somebody else who’s in the business of making tools? What are you thinking?

Channon Kennedy:
I’m thinking, because I’m not sure yet. I never expected to be where I’m at. It wasn’t like one day I woke up and said, “Hey, I’m gonna go build these tools.” But now that I’m in it, I’m not sure which way I want to go yet, and I know I need to have that conversation. I’d love to license it to someone and have them make it, or it would be pretty cool to keep building it out. And I say that because there’s not a lot of women in the trades anyway, and there certainly are even less women-owned tool brands. I’m changing that narrative. For me to actually give this up, it would take some serious thought and consideration. Also, the emotional part—like this is so important, how it came to be. I don’t know that I would just give it up like that.

And so, I need to do some self-reflecting and have some thought-provoking conversations very soon here, because I need to figure out which way I’m going to go. Because I’m pretty sure it’s going to pick up, and there’s going to be some interest. I think, at the last trade show, someone approached me. And I didn’t understand what they were saying until I thought about it, but they were like, “Well, when you’re ready, let me know.” Because it sounded like they have been watching me for a while and are looking into, considering, “Well, do you want to be bought,” or something like that? And so I really need to think about that, Loren, because I’m not exactly sure. I’ve been called the accidental entrepreneur because I never set out to do this. I’m a banker. That’s what I do. So I’m just learning every day, and I’m really enjoying it, but I’m not sure yet.

Paul Downs:
At current rates, how many years before you could quit your day job?

Channon Kennedy:
Oh, I don’t know. People ask me that question all the time, and it’s not just that piece of it, and this is more of a personal part. I also take care of my mother, who has dementia. So I tell people this: I can jeopardize my life if I wanted to jump ship, but I can’t jeopardize mom’s life. So until I’m comfortable in that, I’m going to continue doing what I need to do to make sure that that is never jeopardized.

Loren Feldman:
Channon, is that an issue of health insurance, or just the salary that you make from the bank?

Channon Kennedy:
It’s care. It’s not even the health insurance. I do a lot of traveling and everything else, and I just need to make sure that, basically, Mom has whatever she needs and when she needs it. That’s something I cannot negotiate.

Loren Feldman:
Well, I suspect we will be following the story for quite some time. Delighted to hear that you are invested in the idea of owning the business and remaining the face of it, and we will continue to discuss that with you as time goes on and you continue to meet new challenges. But thanks for joining us here.

Channon Kennedy:
Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. I’m excited to talk about this, and you know, I’ve been hiding for quite some time, my face, but now I’m out. And I’m just excited to be here.

Loren Feldman:
So Paul, I’d love to talk to you a little bit about the year you’ve had. At the beginning of the year, you kind of stunned us by telling us that your phone had essentially stopped ringing. Your business got off to a very slow start. I think you said March was maybe the worst month you’d ever had, at least since you’d started keeping records. You had to lay off, I think, a third of your workforce. What’s happened since then? Have things turned around?

Paul Downs:
Yes, things have turned around. The part of that you left out was that we were coming off our best year ever in 2024, and sales had gone up about 30 percent from 2023. And so all through 2024, I was hiring, adding people to the team and kind of anticipating another pretty strong year. And then that just didn’t happen. So not only did we have no phone ringing, but this very hungry pile of workers who are eating through the backlog in our cash very quickly in the first couple of months. And so that’s why I did the layoffs, because I just needed to slow down the burn rate and stop us from going through all of our backlog. And that worked, but it was helped by the fact that in April, the phone started to ring, and sales have been pretty strong ever since then.

And I’ve been keeping records of my business for the last 40 years. So when I’m not sure what’s going to happen, I tend to look back and think, “Well, what year is this most like?” And really, nothing like any of them, and mostly because what should be happening to the economy is not necessarily happening at the rate I would have thought. You have all this uncertainty from Washington, and that affects many of my clients who are in the government, and many of them who are not in the government.

And I was just thinking, “Okay, the shoe is going to fall at any moment.” We already had one giant pause in incoming sales, and they’re coming back, not quite at the same rate as from 2024, but looking like a solid year. And so, all summer I have resisted increasing my head count in order to get back to the productive capacity that we had with that many people. Because in my business, the amount of product you can put together and ship—that’s your accrued revenue—is pretty directly related to the number of people we have. There’s no magic thing that makes furniture go together faster, other than another pair of hands.

Loren Feldman:
Paul, you did hire some of the people you laid off back.

Paul Downs:
I hired a couple of them back, not all of them. And it became a chance to think about who we wanted to have here. But then also, a couple of the people I hired back then subsequently left again for reasonable reasons—you know, commutes, and one retired. And so I’m back at 22 from 28 last year, and we have a couple of young interns who we picked up from the local high school.

But in general, our productive capacity right now is well suited to about a $4-million-a-year rate, and we’re just about to cross four and a half million for this year in new orders. And so our backlog has been getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and I have been struggling with the thought that, “Well, maybe we should hire to get that under control”—but maybe not, because I felt so burned by last year.

And as a matter of fact, I just came to the realization that we’ve got to put some more people on the shop floor. So I put an ad in Indeed this morning. Part of the reason why I’m not just letting the backlog dial up is because the staff that we’re carrying in the beginning phases of our production stream—which is the sales team, the project managers, the engineers—they’re difficult to replace. And so we have the right number for about four and a half to 5 million, but on the shop floor, we only have the right number for about three and a half million. So we’ve been struggling to get work out the door all year. And on an accrued basis, we have not been profitable.

Now, the other thing is doing the headcount reductions. I also did a temporary pay reduction. That absolutely fixed our cash position. So our cash position has been very strong all year. In fact, I’ve got more money in the bank now than I have in previous years by a long shot. But I always was like, “That’s my reserve, just in case things go to hell again.” So I’ve decided to take my foot off the brake and put my foot on the accelerator and see what happens, and I hope that we don’t just have a replication of last year when the first quarter was so difficult.

Loren Feldman:
Do you know why your sales picked up? Did you do anything differently to generate those sales?

Paul Downs:
I can’t tell you for certain, but much of the bigger sales this year have been military-related, and my suspicion is that the military units that we deal with, or maybe all the units in the military, were spending out fiscal year 2025 funds, which would have been the last budget allocation from the Biden administration. And Trump is not necessarily going to be cutting military spending, but he may be reallocating dollars that went to this thing to go to that thing. Nobody’s really sure.

So I think that a lot of our clients were like, “Let’s just get some of these things done and upgrade our conference rooms while we’ve got the money. And then we’ll deal with whatever happens next year, next year.” That’s my suspicion. So we’ve had a number of headquarters upgrades that were just nice, solid jobs for us. And aside from that, it would probably be about $3.8 million a year.

Loren Feldman:
Have you been affected by the government shutdown?

Paul Downs:
The government shutdown was awesome because I was just about to get into a GSA audit of my GSA contract, and that is an extremely painful experience. And I had been given a long list of very difficult-to-put-together things I needed to do and was just about to submit it—and then the government shut down. And so the guy who was supposed to be torturing me is now sitting home twiddling his thumbs, and I feel bad for him, but I feel better for me. So I mean, it’s just deferring it, but I really wasn’t looking forward to having to deal with it just in the last few weeks.

Loren Feldman:
Is that a routine audit? Or did something trigger that?

Paul Downs:
No, it’s every year, and it’s because we’re relatively new to doing these audits. It’s still a ton of work for me to dig down and find the information they’re asking for and present it in a way that they can digest. And that’s more reflection, I think, of the basic GSA processes are designed, for the most part, to be done by larger companies than me, which have staff to do nothing but deal with this. Whereas with me, this thing just lands in my lap because it’s too complicated to explain to anybody else. I don’t have anybody else to do it.

Loren Feldman:
What’s the overall goal of the audit? What are they really looking for?

Paul Downs:
Well, I suppose that they are hoping that they’re going to audit all of their contractors to prevent fraud. Now, the way laws tend to get written is, if you’re in that ecosystem, everybody has to do it, even though if everything I did was fraudulent, it would still be a pretty small drop in the bucket compared to Lockheed Martin. But I’m swimming in the same pool, and we have to comply with a lot of the same regs as things that are designed to apply to much, much larger, more complex organizations than I am.

Loren Feldman:
So when you say you’re going to put your foot on the gas, obviously that means hiring more people to give you more production capacity. Does it mean anything else?

Paul Downs:
Well, I’m sort of revamping, or vamping up, a marketing effort again too. I’ve gone back and forth on that, but—just in case anybody doesn’t remember—we get most of our leads through Google searches. So 20 some years ago, my web page was chosen by Google to be the top organic search result for people looking for a custom boardroom table, and we’ve been riding that stream of inquiries ever since.

And we have gotten to a pretty good place where the website scores very well, and we get usually somewhere between three and 15 calls every day. And that’s reliably producing more than 4 million a year in revenue. And what terrifies me is the idea that everybody’s switching from doing Google searches to find stuff to doing AI-related searches, which is something that it’s kind of hard to resist just typing into Perplexity or ChatGPT, “Hey, who should make my boardroom table?”

Loren Feldman:
And you’re probably doing the same thing for other searches.

Paul Downs:
Well, I do that for a lot of stuff too, not necessarily for shopping, but certainly to answer questions. And so, Google put me on the path to prosperity, and I want to make sure that we don’t miss the next boat. And so I’m trying to think my way through: How do we translate success on Google into success on these other platforms? Now, my suspicion is that success on Google is actually the prerequisite for success on a lot of these other platforms, particularly for search strings like what would be interesting to me, which is, who makes this thing?

You can search however you want. There aren’t any more manufacturers who are capable of doing it. We’re part of a pretty select group of people who could actually do this product, and so because we already score very well on Google. We’ll most likely do quite well as Google switches its search results to an AI-based result, as opposed to just a link-based result. But how do we make sure that we’re scoring well on ChatGPT, or whatever one pops up?

And my thought is that what we want to do is highlight something that we already kind of emphasize, which is that if you come to my company, you’re going to be dealing with an actual human being and that there’s not going to be a lot of nonsense. We’re just going to put you right in front of helpful people. So how do you convey that on a webpage? Well, part of it would be not using AI to write the whole webpage. And part of it would be making sure that the information we present on the web—and this is just a suspicion of mine, but this is what we’re going to try out: We’re going to repackage that information as more text-based posts, and make sure that my name is prominently sprinkled through there.

And a good example of that: we just took our FAQ page, which is just questions and answers, and I threw it in Chat GPT and said, “Hey, turn this into an interview with Paul Downs,” so that it’s the same information, but instead of being just bullet points with answers, it’ll be like, “Hey, Paul Downs, what’s the answer to how much a table should cost?” And then it’ll say, “Paul Downs, here’s my answer”—just try to infect these text-based knowledge bundles with my name so that we emphasize that connection between we’re the guys to do this particular thing. I don’t know if that actually makes sense to anybody, but that was the best thing I could think of to do right now.

So that’s an effort where we’re going to be doing a lot more blogging. And so I’ve hired someone to help just do the mechanics of that, making sure that content gets posted on our two websites, and then also as blog posts. And that we’re just keeping the site fresh and reseeding it with text-based answers. Does that make sense?

Loren Feldman:
I think it does. I’m curious, did you plot this strategy by reading what other people have written on the topic, by asking ChatGPT what you should do, by hiring somebody who claims to be an expert? How did you come up with it?

Paul Downs:
None of that. I just thought about it. I’m pretty smart. [Laughter] So I just thought about: Okay, you know, like we’ve been playing this game with Google for 20 some years now. What does Google really want? And sometimes Google will give you indications of what they want. So 10 years ago was: We want to make sure you have a mobile responsive website. And then, in a world where people are looking at reviews for everything, we make sure that we’re doing everything we can to get Google reviews so that Google is noticing that we’re reaching out to our clients, and people are coming back and saying, “Great job.” And I’ve always maintained an AdWords campaign—not because it actually does anything much for us, but it’s just a way to give Google some money.

So those are my three main strategies for keeping Google happy, and then just thinking about: Okay, if we’re going to a text-based world where everything goes through, sort of passes through a filter of having to be described by text, and the answer is now often a text-based answer, as opposed to a link-based, “What would you do?” well, you better come up with some good text. And it better not look like AI slop, and it has to be something that, even if it’s written in a way that isn’t keyword stuffing, somehow ties back to my company.

So those are the things that just in my mind are going to work. But I don’t really believe anybody knows exactly what the path to success is in the near future, because nobody ever knew. People were always guessing about SEO, and the people who run these large language models don’t even know how they work themselves. They can’t predict what’s going to happen. So, more text is probably worthwhile. Making sure that we’re emphasizing our current position is probably worthwhile. And that’s just a thought I had.

Loren Feldman:
Channon or Lena, have either of you been thinking about what you need to do to show up in generative AI searches?

Lena McGuire:
Yeah, I’m redoing my website, and we are talking about doing blogs, not just short blogs, but a series of blogs. So I remodel kitchens and bathrooms, and it’s a long process. So we’re going to do a case study that is similar to a real project that takes, like, two years. So from the idea, when a potential client would think, “Oh, I’m not happy with my kitchen,” when they have that first little inkling, that would be the first start of the blog where we’re saying, “Okay, so you’re thinking about your kitchen. So here’s what you want to do: Keep a wants versus need list.” Put some helpful tips in there, and just guide them on a weekly basis as to what things are going so that this can be highlighted on the blog, and live there forever, and anybody can come into it.

So if I go through a year and a half to two years, and I have these blogs as a series, they can come back to it and jump in at any point, and it will always be a fresh case study for somebody to follow from where they are. So we’re hoping that that’s going to grab some of that professional expertise, help guide you, but not give you all the information that you need. Just this is what the process is like. That’s kind of the thought right now.

Loren Feldman:
Have you sought any guidance on that, Lena, or like Paul, are you kind of gaming it out yourself?

Lena McGuire:
I have a marketing agency I use, and it’s not cheap. You know, we’re talking tens of thousands of dollars for a year, but I think it’s a good investment, especially in the times right now where people who have money are still doing kitchens, and people who don’t are holding on. So it’s not too bad for me, because I’m leveling up the types of projects I’m doing. But yeah, I’ve got to market all the time. Always be marketing! And I’m paying somebody else to do it. You know, I want to do what I’m good at. I’m letting the other people do what they’re good at. So that requires setting a proper budget for it.

Loren Feldman:
How about you, Channon?

Channon Kennedy:
I would say, right there with you. You’ve got to have a budget. So yes, I have a marketing team now. So yes, ChatGPT comes up all the time, just getting it set up and getting that algorithm out there. And I think it’s happening already, because when I get things in from my website, it’s coming from all sorts of places. So yes, I am just trying to make sure that the strategy is there, that I’ve got the right connections. I think, Lena, you just said blogs, but it’s how you get it out there, and how you get it to show up. Like, I know that I just showed up—I think it was Apple News the other day—and it’s just based off of how things are set up, how you’re driving things out there. So yes, working with a marketing team, and as Lena said: Let the people know what they’re supposed to be doing, do that, because I’m not that person.

Loren Feldman:
We only have a couple minutes left. Lena, I just wanted to follow up. Last time you were here, we talked a lot about your efforts to buy a building. You put in a bid on one place, and it looked like that wasn’t going to work out. So you were still looking around. Any update there?

Lena McGuire:
I am still looking around. There has been no new real estate available in the area I’m looking at, so I am broadening my search. I’d still like to stay in the one town that I’ve targeted, but I have dug into a few other towns that are also good areas, and I may end up somewhere else for a temporary time. So yeah, it’s a continuing search.

Loren Feldman:
All right, my thanks to Paul Downs, Lena McGuire, and especially our new member, Channon Kennedy. Thank you all for sharing. I really appreciate it.