Should You Be in a Business Group?

Introduction:

This week, Sarah Segal, Jay Goltz, and special guest Leo Bottary have a hype-free conversation about why peer-advisory groups like Vistage, YPO, and EO can be life-changing for business owners and why they’re not for everyone. Sarah has been wondering if they’re for her. Jay, who’s been in six different peer groups, says it can be worth the price of admission just to see how other owners run their businesses—but there are reasons he keeps leaving the groups he joins. And Leo is a former Vistage employee who has written multiple books on peer groups and has built a related consulting practice. Surprisingly few business owners belong to a peer group. Are they missing out? All three of my guests suggest questions to consider before deciding for yourself.

— Loren Feldman

Guests:

Leo Bottary is founder of Peernovation.

Sarah Segal is CEO of Segal Communications.

Jay Goltz is CEO of The Goltz Group.

Producer:

Jess Thoubboron is founder of Blank Word Productions.

Full Episode Transcript:

Loren Feldman:
Welcome Leo, Jay, and Sarah. It’s great to have you all here—especially you, Leo. Thanks for joining us. Can you just start by, for someone who doesn’t know, isn’t familiar with these groups, can you first give us a sense of what’s the goal? What’s the purpose? How does it work?

Leo Bottary:
So when you’re a CEO, there are all these books on leadership and followership, and all these other kinds of things. There’s very little out there that tells you what it is you’re supposed to be doing as a CEO, especially for companies that could be 20, 50, 100 million dollars. And you still have CEOs there who play the role of chief everything officer more than they understand about chief executive officer. So if you can assemble and essentially facilitate—whether it’s self-facilitated, or you have someone do it, and it could be 8, 12, 16 members, whatever it happens to be—but the idea is you put all these CEOs in a room. They share the common challenge of what it’s like to sit in that chair and have to run their companies and consider all of the stakeholders involved.

It isn’t just having the luxury of looking at your company through an HR lens, legal, finance, or whatever it is. You’ve got to look at the whole shooting match with everything involved and to sit around with a group of people where there are so many challenges and opportunities and dynamics of the job that you have in common. The ability to share those things with one another in real time, dealing with real issues, if you will, going on in your company, and real aspirations going on in your company, they’re really, really powerful. Just to be able to sit in a room in a confidential setting, where you can really sit and be yourself. You can be in a room with people and be real with one another. What don’t you know? What are you afraid of? What are you concerned about with regard to the future?

Loren Feldman:
Is there a basic format for these meetings, Leo?

Leo Bottary:
Different organizations run it in different ways, for sure. I think, by and large, people come in and gather and just spend casual time with one another. And then, oftentimes, there’s some kind of a check-in where everyone just talks about, “Hey, how are things going since last month?” And they kind of just give an update about where they are and what’s going on. Many groups also have speakers that come in, who provide some type of expertise. And it could be on whatever the needs of the group are. It could be on organizational culture, it could be finance, it could be sales, it could be anything like that. And oftentimes, this content can be very powerful and really helpful.

But I think the meat of these meetings really come together, or really begin when you have people who engage one another. They will bring challenges and opportunities. They will frame them as questions to the group that give the group background information they talk about, what they’re looking to do, what they’ve done about it so far. They have some uncertainties about next steps. And this is where they can engage group members and really dig deep into some of these questions that can be either big questions that have to do with the entire future of the business, or they can be more tactical from time to time.

Oftentimes, there’s—for lack of a better word—call it kind of an accountability aspect of things. So let’s say that I brought a challenge or a question to a group, and they helped me with that in some way. What I would want to do in the next meeting is say, “Hey, I got some great new information from you folks. Here’s what resonated with me. Here’s what I decided to do. And here’s where we are on this.” Because sometimes, we can all get together in a conference room and come up with genius plans that, once they meet real life, they can deal us something different. So we want to obviously show how our actions are working, on one hand from an accountability standpoint, but on the other, you want to make sure that the learning opportunity is not lost for everyone there.

Loren Feldman:
The brand names that I’m most familiar with are Vistage, EO, and YPO. Are there big differences that we should know about between those organizations? Or are they basically the same concept?

Leo Bottary:
There are big differences. So Vistage started in 1957, for example. Their core was peer advisory groups. Now, YPO has been around a little bit longer. But that really wasn’t the core of of what they did. That came on decades later, where they started to run peer-advisory groups as part of their overall value proposition, where you get executives and spouses and everything together, helping one another, and networking, and connecting, and all of that. EO tends to serve, I think, by and large, some smaller companies.

You’ve got Renaissance Executive Forums out there right now, that’s really looking to build a global ecosystem. And they’re doing some good work. But there are a lot of organizations out there. There’s the Alternative Board. There are many, many organizations out there. There are people who start their own groups, as well. They may not lean on an organization to do that, and there can be some advantages to that.

Jay Goltz:
There are two huge differences between YPO and Vistage, and I’ve been in both. In Vistage, there’s someone paid to run the meetings, and in YPO, you take turns on whoever’s month it is. That’s the first difference, and the second difference is, I don’t know what the number now is, but it used to be you had to become the president by the time you were 40 to be in this group. Which means there aren’t a whole lot of older people in this thing, which I think is a huge disadvantage, especially now that I’m older. I know way more now than I did when I was 38. And as a result, the YPO groups got mostly people who took over the family business, because it’s pretty hard—I did it—but it’s pretty hard to get to that size by yourself, if you started from scratch, and pay the big fee to be in it. So I do think there’s a big difference between those two groups.

Leo Bottary:
There is. Now, at YPO, the people who run the groups do get some facilitation training. The groups tend to be a bit smaller. And there’s no question there’s a bit of a different dynamic there than Vistage. But yeah, you know, every one of these groups can be a little bit different. And I think this may go where we’re headed with this, which is: Well, how do you know what group is right for you? What does that look like? And I think a lot of that starts with you.

What am I looking for out of this group? And as specific as you can be about that, the more likely you’re going to be able to find A) an organization that fits with your needs, but B) also the actual right group and the right members and the right leadership of that group, where you feel the fit can work for you as well.

Loren Feldman:
Those are exactly the kinds of questions that I was about to ask Sarah. Sarah, I believe you’ve mentioned on the podcast that you have an interest in joining a group. Is that still the case? And if so, what are you looking for?

Sarah Segal:
I am a joiner by nature, I have to say. I love joining these kinds of groups. I’m part of PR groups because that’s what I do and my area of expertise. There’s one that I’m part of, which is PR Council, which is mostly leadership focused, which is great. But I’ve been curious about Vistage. I’ve been curious about EO and other organizations like that. Just to get perspective. I’m too old for YPO, it sounds like.

Leo Bottary:
You can be older and get into YPO. I think it’s called YPO Gold. Sometimes they like to remove the G.

Sarah Segal:
It’s not YPO Gray? So these organizations I’m part of are fantastic, but you tend to find yourself in a bubble of knowledge. And I’m a big advocate of siphoning new ideas from other industries. I think it’s been really great for me as a business owner, for my clients. So I would only assume that it would be beneficial for me, for my own business, to see what somebody’s doing with their real estate firm and see if it’s something I can apply to mine.

Loren Feldman:
So Sarah, what has kept you from joining one of these groups to this point?

Sarah Segal:
Well, they’re not free. [Laughter] So I think that’s number one. And it’s just bandwidth, making sure that if I’m going to join something like this, I’m going to be able to get the most out of it. And figuring out: Do I have the time? And if it’s going to be worth my money. I don’t want to subscribe to Netflix and then not be able to actually sit and watch my series. I want to be able to actually focus my energy on it. So I think it’s timing. But also, is this the investment that I want to make? And so, yeah, I’ve started exploring it a little bit, but I haven’t invested in it yet.

Leo Bottary:
And unless you see it as an investment, you’ll always see the expense. There are many people who are members of groups for 10 to 20 years. They don’t do it because they need more friends or because they just get used to going to the group meetings. They do it because they can absolutely quantify the exponential value that they get in hard dollars from what they do versus what they’re getting. So again, the more clear you are on what you want, what your metrics are, and all that, the easier that’s going to be to evaluate.

Jay Goltz:
Let’s just be clear—correct me if I’m wrong—Vistage these days it’s probably about $18,000 a year. Correct?

Leo Bottary:
I think it’s close to that. I think you’re right, yeah.

Sarah Segal:
That’s a lot of money.

Leo Bottary:
Yeah, it’s somewhere $16-18k, something like that. I don’t exactly know what the CEO group membership is.

Jay Goltz:
Big picture—and I’ve been in Vistage twice—I’ve been in Presidents Forum, I’ve been in YPO. I’ve started my own groups, two or three.

Loren Feldman:
Jay, let me ask you. How many business groups have you been in?

Jay Goltz:
Six, but over 35 years. And there’s a common denominator as to why I left each one of them. I totally believe in business groups. I would say that if you go into the right group, if you can’t make $18,000 more from this, then there’s something wrong. I mean, we’re talking about making huge changes in your business.

Here are my three things. What are three things I got out of groups? Number one, you get someone else who will look at your business and ask questions that maybe you didn’t think of. Okay, that’s valuable.

Number two is, you get to see the way other people make money and run their businesses, and I will tell you, I’m in a fairly unique situation. I’ve never had a job. I got plopped out of the sky at 22, went and started my own business. And I spent years thinking everyone knew better than I did. And I’ve gotta tell you, it’s a tremendous confidence builder. Because you look at other people, and you think, “God, compared to him, I’m Einstein.” [Laughter] And three, there were a couple of speakers that I listened to, one in particular: life changing. And I don’t say that lightly.

But I’m going to tell you right now why I usually leave: In almost every case, the group started to dwindle. They got down to seven, eight people. And this is my problem: I look around the room, and I’m usually one of only two entrepreneurs. The rest took over the family business, and it’s different.

Loren Feldman:
How’s it different, Jay?

Jay Goltz:
I don’t say this facetiously. I say this aggravatedly: I don’t want to hear about the golf anymore. I just, I don’t want to hear any more about golfing. Every single group.

Loren Feldman:
And you think second-generation plays more golf than first-generation?

Jay Goltz:
Yeah. Or, let’s get back to the roots. The parent was successful. Therefore, they grew up in a nicer neighborhood, and they grew up playing golf. I didn’t. I was from a working-class kind of family. And so, I really just don’t want to pay $18,000 a year and hear about their golf trips. And every single one of these groups had that. And some of these people are simply unqualified to be running the business. And I’ve literally watched them go broke. I’ve sat in groups and watched them slowly but surely take the family business and destroy it. There’s not a lot to learn from that.

And in hindsight, I should have spent more time investigating the group to figure it out. I’m envious of people that have been in groups for 10 years and have great groups and dynamic things. I was in groups that had, like I said, as I’m looking back, literally, there was only one or two people in each group who actually started the business. And it’s different.

Loren Feldman:
Leo, have you heard that concern before?

Leo Bottary:
Not articulated quite that way. I will say, obviously, it’s not only Jay’s experience, but it’s some of what I’ve seen. So I’ve delivered workshops for about 400 groups, throughout North America, and in different parts of the world. And there is no question that not all groups are created equal. There’s also an aspect of this, too, that this is just a big relationship among a lot of people, when you think about it. And so when you have—pick a number—10, 12, 14 members, whatever happens to be in the group, sustaining that level of energy, where that group is constantly growing and getting better, takes a lot. And when people start to lose focus, for example, on why it is they joined the group to begin with, and it starts to become more about the relationships, more about the golf conversations, more about those kinds of things than something that really drives the reason that they’re there, I’ve seen the efficacy of those groups fall by the wayside in a very big way.

It takes a lot, and it’s not just the leader of the group. It’s every individual member. And it’s the group itself. And I think also, when you are a member of a group, I would also really highly recommend that if there are certain kinds of members that you want to make sure are added to the group or those voices around the table that you think are necessary for you and others to get value, then by all means, figure out a way to add those voices. And I think that’s really, really important. Things change: People go, they sell their company, they leave for whatever reason. It can be any number of things that happen. And there has to be just a hyper focus on making sure that we’ve got the group that is going to be serving us best. But it’s a lot.

Jay Goltz:
That’s why you pay $18,000 a year, because I believe they’re supposed to be bringing in the new members, and my experience has been: They failed at it. They couldn’t find new members. And in every one of these cases, by the time I left, there were only eight people left in it, and I don’t think that’s enough. I don’t know that it’s got to be 16, but I think it’s probably got to be 12. And they just couldn’t find new members. And that’s why I was paying $18,000 a yea,r and when I did it myself, it was even harder, obviously.

Leo Bottary:
Sure. So the only thing I would suggest there—and I talk about this a lot to groups, some groups that have been together as many as 20-plus years, some that are brand new groups—I think recruiting new members and making sure that all the voices around the table are necessary is everyone’s job. Everybody owns a piece of it. It’s the only way that that becomes sustainable.

And the reason you pay $18,000 isn’t to pay someone to recruit new members. There’s a lot of aspects of the entire dynamic and the resources that are available, both in and outside the group meeting. I think groups have gotten a lot better and a lot more attentive to not having the group be the only thing. But also, I think people are getting more sophisticated about how to take our group experience and make it that much better. I mean, the groups that I speak to have been together a long time, in many cases. And on one hand, when it starts, they’re like, “Hey, I think we’ve got this figured out.” It takes about a half an hour for them to realize, “No, we don’t.” And they get it.

Sarah Segal:
Can you walk me through what a typical month of activity for a group would be like?

Leo Bottary:
So some groups meet in person, some groups meet virtually. Some are full day, some are a half day. They tend to have some pretty good structure about what they do and how to be prepared for that meeting so that when you come together, you get the best value you can from that time you spend together.

And then, obviously, you don’t want to just go from month to month to month, and you never talk to anyone again. Many groups have, especially for CEO peer groups, one-on-one coaching with whoever’s leading the group, which can be part of it. And they also are encouraged to engage with other members during the course of the month in a way that’s designed to help one another and get to know each other’s businesses better, their aspirations more clearly. And unless you understand that, you don’t know how to help someone, and they don’t know how to help you.

One of the things that CEO members, in particular, admit to me time and time again is that this is the least prepared they show up to any meeting on their calendar. So when you get people together, when you realize how important it is and can be for them to just prepare in the same way they would for a board meeting, client meeting, or staff meeting, everything goes up in a huge way.

Loren Feldman:
Are they embarrassed when they admit that to you?

Leo Bottary:
A little. And then sometimes they’ll point to one member in the room, and they’ll say, “You know what, you are visibly better prepared than all of us every single time, every single month. How long does that take you?” And I’ve never heard anyone say it takes much more than 15 or 20 minutes. They go through the notes in their last meeting. They figure out what they need to talk about themselves. They look at who the speaker is going to be at the present meeting. They try the best they can to clear the decks of whatever head trash is going on. Because whatever’s going on in your company, you want to leave that behind at least for a half day or a day when that meeting is happening, so you can be fully present for yourself and for everyone else. So there’s an intentionality I think about it.

And the reason that I speak this now to so many new groups, is because people join these groups, and they think they know what they joined. And they have a good sense of what they’re looking for. But once you can really get them focused—and I walk them through five intentional conversations to have about how to make this your group. You could run under the Vistage banner, the Renaissance banner, the YPO banner. Doesn’t matter. This is still your group. How do you make it your own? And what’s going to work for you? What’s going to give everyone here value? And when you can do that, now I start to see new groups flourish. And then I see groups that have been around a long time completely re-energized.

Sarah Segal:
What’s the benefit of joining one of these Vistage places or just starting your own group, like Jay has?

Jay Goltz:
I can tell you, it’s very hard if you do it on your own. It’s very very hard to find the eight or 10 people to join. Given that it’s free, or next to free, there maybe is a little less commitment on their part. And I’ve been in groups with some very lovely people, but at the end of the day, as my company got bigger, my company was way bigger than most. The one I’m in now, I’m the biggest place in there. And it’s not an advantage, because a lot of these companies are a fraction of the size of mine. And yes, it’s a bad matchup.

Loren Feldman:
Jay, from your experience, what makes an effective chair or leader of one of these groups? And what can go wrong?

Jay Goltz:
Well, Leo, I’ll ask you this: I think this is just like running your company. And I hate to be the jerk, but I’ll be the jerk, as usual. There are people who just don’t bring any value to these meetings. You tell them every meeting, you say, “Hey, what are you doing with this production manager?” “You’re right, I need to get another production manager.” And then you go there a year later, and you go, “What’s going on? Isn’t this the same guy who was here before?” “Well, yeah.” They don’t do anything. And I don’t want to sit there in meetings and go over the same thing over and over. So in my mind, a great person who’s running the meeting, who makes a living off of this, you’ve got to fire some members sometimes. And I don’t think that happens a lot. I think there are some people who don’t bring value to the group. Leo, what do you think of that?

Leo Bottary:
I think good leaders fire members all the time, because I think—no different than what you’re talking about with your company and your company’s team—one bad team member can spoil the group and can certainly spoil and hurt the value that everyone else gets from it. And this is where, when we talk about the right leaders, the way I kind of define it is: I walked people through a workshop that basically says, “Do we have all the right people in the room? What does that look like for us?”

Jay Goltz:
So I find there’s another issue, and the reason I keep joining groups is I find them very valuable even when they’re not perfect. I run out of steam eventually, partially because the numbers have dwindled. Plus, I’ve seen the businesses three or four times, and it just gets boring, frankly. So here’s another issue I’ve noticed, though: Some groups, there’s people that are very sensitive in it, and everything’s got to be couched. And you’ve got other groups, let’s just say it the way it is. And I want to be in a group, just say it the way it is. I can take it. You can take it. There are some people that really don’t want to be in that environment. There i s a difference as to the way some groups operate. Leo, you with me on that?

Leo Bottary:
Yeah. And it’s a great question, by the way, to ask when, in terms of talking about group norms and what the culture of the group is like. It’s no different than if you were applying for a job at any one of a number of companies. They could all be successful, but they all go about it in a very different way. So in terms of what that looks like, if you are seeking out certain things, those are great questions to ask.

Loren Feldman:
It must vary greatly, Leo. Have you seen that? And do you have a sense of which tone works better?

Leo Bottary:
It’s which tone works better for them. What have they agreed upon? What do they have clarity about? How do they understand what the rules of the road are for them? This is their group. That’s what I mean. So as Jay pointed out, you can have a lot of groups where you just throw it out there. There’s not a lot of sugar-coating. There’s not any of that kind of stuff. And in other cases, there can be a little more of a respectful tone, if you will.

Jay Goltz:
Well, you know what, I want to stop you there for a second. I don’t find it disrespectful to say, “Leo, this is the third meeting we’ve been at. You keep talking about the production manager. For God’s sakes, don’t you think you—” I call that respectful. I think Vistage is the one that always says, “Don’t ever give suggestions. Say, ‘in my experience’”—oh, vomit. Really? I’ve gotta couch everything.

Leo Bottary:
Actually, that’s EO, not Vistage.

Jay Goltz:
Okay, good.

Loren Feldman:
Well, a lot of groups, mean, that’s AA as well. That’s a pretty common precept in these kinds of groups. Leo, do you think that’s a good way to run a meeting or not?

Leo Bottary:
So YPO and EO basically have said, “We’re out of the advice giving business,” largely because they believe it compromises the psychological safety of the group and that when someone is giving advice, it becomes more about the one giving the advice than the one receiving. Would I take it that far? No, I think it’s about the group.

And by the way, any individual member who seeks assistance from the group, who wants the group’s help, should be clear on what they want. Do they want them to just listen and don’t say anything? Do they want them to just share their experiences, if they happen to have one? Or I could be asking something of the group and saying, “I don’t know what to do. Tell me. Tell me what to do. Give me all the advice you got.”

And, Jay, I think you’re right. My point wasn’t that that behavior is disrespectful. I think that, to what you mentioned, some people are more sensitive to those kinds of direct conversations. And, again, the culture of the group is going to dictate how that goes. And I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer. I just think whatever gets them there.

Jay Goltz:
My perspective is: Not only am I paying $1,500 a month, I’ve taken a day out of my entire week. And I don’t want to hear you complaining about your production. You’re stealing my time. And I wouldn’t go, “You’re an idiot.” I’d say, “Leo, I’ve gotta tell you, this is really getting old.”

Loren Feldman:
Jay, let me ask you, you’ve raised a number of concerns. This is a big one. What has happened in the groups you’ve been in when you’ve addressed these issues? Have you gone to the chair and said, “Look, I can’t listen to this guy talking about his production manager anymore?”

Jay Goltz:
Oh, I absolutely have talked about it. It’s been a long time and a lot of different people. But I can tell you, you want to talk about a business model problem? Leo, you know, better than I do—how much of the $18,000 does the person running the group get? Half?

Leo Bottary:
It depends on—there’s a lot of variables in there.

Jay Goltz:
But it could be half. Let’s just go with half for a second. I’m telling somebody, “Hey, I want you to get rid of that guy,” and it’s going to cost them nine grand. How motivated is he or she going to be motivated to lose nine thousand dollars? It’s a problem. And I’ve seen it where there are people coming to these meetings who absolutely bring nothing to the meeting. I’m sorry. I didn’t join a self-help, I didn’t join a pity party group. I didn’t join a support group. I’m joining a group to make my business better, to make myself better, to learn and to give both, back and forth. And there are some people who are just there because their parent left them the business.

Loren Feldman:
All right, first I want to take a quick break to hear from our sponsor. We’ll be right back.

[Message from our sponsor, Work Better Now]

Loren Feldman:
And we’re back. Sarah, I want to ask you. Are you losing interest in joining a group?

Sarah Segal:
Well, I was just gonna ask Leo. My question is, when I talk to clients and they want to consider working with us, one of the biggest questions that they give us is, “What is the return on my investment in you going to be? Can you guarantee anything?” Which is a whole ‘nother topic for PR. And, “How do we measure that? What are the KPIs that we’re going to, the key performance indicators, that we’re going to use to gauge whether or not we’re meeting those goals?” My question for you, Leo, is: How do I know I’m getting a return on investment? What kind of return on investment can I expect?

Leo Bottary:
I think it’s different for everyone. But your example is fantastic, because I owned my own PR firm as well. And there’s nothing worse than when you’re in a situation where you think you’ve done really great work. And then all of a sudden, you’re talking to the client, the client is somehow disappointed. You’re like, “Wait a minute.” And what you realize is that you didn’t have clarity about what success looks like from the very start. And I think that’s what has to be clear on both sides.

When you imagine joining a group, it’s thinking about, “Why am I doing it? What are the key performance indicators for me that will let me have a sense of what success looks like?” So that you’re clear on that. And then, “How do we go about measuring? How do we think about that together? And what that looks like.” So I think that’s an essential part of this—or quite frankly, any relationship like this, whether we’re joining a group, or hiring a PR firm, or whatever it happens to be.

Jay Goltz:
I think this is like asking, “How do you know when you’re in love?” [Laughter] I mean, I disagree. I don’t think this is like PR or anything. If you’re in a group, and it’s working, every meeting, you go home thinking, “Wow, that was great.” Whether it’s giving you confidence, whether it’s giving you insight, whether you learned something important that you can use in your marketing strategy. I mean, this could be a life-changing event, being in a business group. And I just think you’re either gonna know it, or you’re not. Or you’re gonna leave there thinking, “Oh my God, I just wasted a whole day listening to that guy whine for four hours.”

Leo Bottary:
I think that’s 100 percent true, except you have to meet people where they are. The question related to someone who’s considering first joining a group: What does that look like, and how do you set those expectations for what’s going on? There’s no question that once you’ve joined the group, you begin to discover all kinds of things and all kinds of benefits that are very, very powerful. And you start to look at that ROI very, very differently than when you did from the very beginning. So I kind of agree with both of you, in that regard. I mean, I think the questions at the beginning are really important. And I think over time, when you experience being part of a group—and you’re in a good group—you’re going to get exactly what Jay talked about.

Jay Goltz:
I mean, I would almost say the opposite. I would say—and I respect that 18 grand’s a lot of money—I’m saying, I would ask the question: Could you sit in a room for 12 months with other business owners and not figure something out about management, marketing, or finance that is going to change your trajectory of your business even just a little bit? It’s kind of hard to imagine, if you’re in the right group, that it won’t pay for itself.

Leo Bottary:
I think that’s a fair point, but it’s the perspective of someone who’s been involved in six groups in their life. And I think that’s a really good one. And I think it provides people with some sense of what’s to come. I think for someone who’s looking to participate in this experience for the very first time, they’ll have to discover exactly what you have. And I think that that’s a fair new addition to the conversation, for sure.

Sarah Segal:
So, here’s a question about the groups, though, in terms of the makeup. How big are these groups? Because I know that Jay has mentioned the size of eight at one point during this conversation. Are there going to be other PR agencies in there? And what’s their incentive on divulging and providing me guidance, if essentially, I’m a competitor?

Leo Bottary:
For one thing, at least in the mixed groups, if you will, people who come into these groups who represent different industry sectors and all of that, most groups that I know of, in terms of organizations that run them, do not allow for competitors to be in the same room. And for good reason. You want to be able to talk about your business very openly and not have a competitor in the room, but you can learn from other people who are in very different kinds of businesses, but who share very common challenges with you, but by the same token, can offer a really different perspective. So it’s a great question.

Jay Goltz:
Leo, why don’t we ask the opposite question: Are there people who shouldn’t be in groups? And I would say: Absolutely. There are some people whose personality, they don’t belong in groups. They’re too sensitive, or they’re too afraid to say what’s on their mind. Or they’re not really into their business. There are plenty of people that really are better off not spending the 18 grand and going to meetings every month and doing a little soul-searching on: Are you really trying to improve your business? Do you have an open mind? Are you open to change? Do you have thickish skin? I’m not saying people are yelling at you, calling you stupid, but people who are overly sensitive, it’s like: Do everyone a favor: Please don’t join a group.

Leo Bottary:
Or to your point, the opposite of that is the person who’s going to be boorish, who thinks, “I’m going to join a group so I can teach everyone else what I know about the world.” So there’s no question: Being part of a peer advisory group is absolutely not for everyone.

Jay Goltz:
I mean, statistically—correct me if I’m wrong—there can’t be more than 1 or 2 percent of business owners who are in a peer advisory group. I mean, there’s a lot of businesses in the United States, and there aren’t that many groups. So most business people are not in the peer advisory group.

Leo Bottary:
That’s right. It’s barely that. This is the whole reason for the first book: The idea that, how could there be something out there that exists that is so powerful and so effective for so many, but be used by so few? And I think the idea was, at least try to put together a narrative so that people would have an understanding of what this is all about. If it’s for you, great. You’re going to be opened up to a whole new world that you’re going to find to be incredibly valuable to you. But if it’s not, that’s okay, too. But at least you have had the opportunity to evaluate it.

Loren Feldman:
Leo, is there some other reason why there aren’t more people in groups? It’s hard to believe that it’s a question of marketing. I think most business owners are aware that these groups exist. Or am I wrong?

Jay Goltz:
I couldn’t disagree more, Loren. They do horrible marketing. I very seldom have anyone ever calling. I don’t see any ads on it. I don’t think they’re doing a very good job.

Loren Feldman:
Maybe they’ve heard about you, Jay.

Jay Goltz:
Maybe. Well, I don’t think so. They were always happy to get me.

Sarah Segal:
How do they find you? I mean, for example, I’ve run my own business for a while, and I’ve never been reached out to by one of these groups, first of all. Second of all, what is the application process like?

Leo Bottary:
Yeah, so I think that’s a fair point, clearly, regarding the marketing, because I think that most people actually are not nearly as aware, Loren, as you might think about these groups, and the fact that they exist, and that it’s for them at all. And part of it, too, is, many of these organizations—even if people look at Vistage and YPO, and they think they’re so big, and all that stuff, they’re really not. When you consider, from a marketing perspective, they don’t just compete with one another. They compete for every marketing message thrown in your direction in the course of any given day, week, month, or over the course of the year.

And it’s not even close. I mean, it’s extremely difficult to cut through, in many respects, and also people get into a flow of what they’re doing and how they’re doing things, and to introduce something brand new into their lives—which is essentially what these groups do—is a tall order. And it kind of, I think, is a lot of work for people.

Loren Feldman:
Sarah, you had a second part to that. Was it about the application process?

Sarah Segal:
Yeah, like, am I applying for college again?

Leo Bottary:
I wouldn’t say you’re quite applying for college again. I’d like to think that the best groups out there, and the leaders of those groups, even though it can come across this way, literally aren’t trying to sell you for being part of a group. It’s more of an executive recruiting initiative than it is a salesman. It’s trying to hopefully figure out whether there’s a good fit here, and whether this makes sense for everyone, that you become part of a group. And they ask all the right questions, I think, to make that happen.

And this has come up a little bit, in terms of incentive for leaders, to either recruit members or not kick members out, and all of that. I think any good leader of a group recognizes that when you have one toxic member, it’s a problem that’s going to create a huge issue for you down the road. And then when you’re bringing a new member into the group, you’ve got to bring someone in who, on one hand, yes, they have to bring value in a way that is different and additive. But at the same time, culturally, they have to be the kind of fit for that particular group that makes sense.

Jay Goltz:
I haven’t found one person in the six groups that was toxic. The problem was, they had nothing to bring to the group.

Leo Bottary:
No question about it. I don’t care if it’s any peer advisor group, any company team, or whatever, it’s only as strong as its members. And so if you’ve got members who aren’t bringing value, there’s a conversation to be had there.

Loren Feldman:
Sarah, do you have other questions?

Sarah Segal:
Yeah, do they all go to a restaurant together? Do they sit in a conference room? Like, is there food and lunch served during these things? Like, what is the vibe? I’m just kind of curious about that. Also I apologize for my dog. I have a dog.

Leo Bottary:
These are good questions. I mean, the reality is that there are a lot of groups that either meet at a particular location where they get everyone together and there’s usually a little bit of breakfast and mingling at the front end. They have a morning session. They’ll have lunch together and they meet in the afternoon. Other groups will meet on a rotating basis at whatever member’s location. And this can be particularly interesting if someone is running a manufacturing facility, for example, and you get to see maybe over lunch and you get a little bit of a tour about how they make their product and how they do what they do.

There are other entities, in the same way, that have workplaces that are actually really great to be part of to see where these people live and what they’re doing. So the meetings will shift from month to month to specific workplaces. Yes, there is typically, as I mentioned, breakfast and lunch, and just an opportunity to spend quality time together once a month that can be really important to these folks.

Loren Feldman:
Leo, do you have questions you would suggest someone ask before choosing a group? If you’re meeting with a chair, if you’re meeting with members of a group, what do you want to know?

Leo Bottary:
Yeah, I’d like them to walk me through a typical meeting and what they think is a really successful meeting. What does that look like for them, I think, would be a great question. I think, how do people accept being challenged in a group setting like this? What is that dynamic like? And how do they tend to handle that?

Loren Feldman:
That’s kind of Jay’s question.

Jay Goltz:
Here’s the questions I’d ask. One is, I absolutely want to know the background of the person who’s running the group. Where did they learn about business? What’s their experience? Why do they run a group? I want to know what that’s all about. Two, I want to know about, what do you do to vet people who are coming into the group? What’s important to you, as the group leader? What are you looking for in a person? Three, I’d want to ask: Can you give me an example of maybe you blew it on one and you shouldn’t have had him in the group? Have you fired anybody from the group? And why did you fire them from the group?

And then maybe, four, I’d ask: “Okay, Bob, you said you have 12 people in the group. What are the dynamics? Are there a couple of lead dogs in there? I mean, walk me through who’s in the group.” And in my case, and maybe this is just my thing, I’d want to know how many entrepreneurs are in the group? Because in my little experience, I’ve been only one of two. And I’m told some groups, half of them are entrepreneurs. And business owners are not entrepreneurs. It’s not the same thing. Entrepreneurs take risks, start things, and other people run businesses. They might be really good at running businesses, extremely good, or they might build up gigantic businesses. But there is a difference in mentality. And I’d want to know, what is the complexion of the group? And I did not do any of that when I went into the groups, frankly, so I should have, but who knew?

Leo Bottary:
I think Jay’s asking questions about things that are important to him. And I think that’s what everybody should do.

Jay Goltz:
You know, I’m unusual, because I’m a business junkie. I just love figuring stuff out. And I love business. So I don’t want to talk about golf. I don’t care about the wine. I want to talk about the business. And maybe I’m one dimensional. That’s okay, I’ll live with that. And there are other people who do want to spend a lot of time. Here’s a question, for sure, I’d ask: What percentage would you say is business and what percentage is personal? I’d want to know that. If they say 75 percent business, 25 percent personal, I probably would go look for a different group. That doesn’t interest me.

Leo Bottary:
Now, let me ask you this. So you said 75 percent, 25 percent personal, and it’s not of interest to you because that’s too much personal at 25 percent?

Jay Goltz:
No, no. When I say personal, I want to be specific. I’m talking about hearing about their vacations and the golfing. That’s what I’m talking about, chitchat. I have no interest in that. So I’d like a group that’s 90 percent business and 10 percent chitchat.

Leo Bottary:
So would it surprise you that, of all of the groups I visited, I would say that, by far—and this is certainly not true of every single group or every single person—but many of these business leaders find it actually more difficult to share business issues with the group than they do personal issues with the group.

Loren Feldman:
Difficult in what sense, Leo?

Leo Bottary:
They don’t want to compromise their currency as a CEO in a group of other CEOs, in particular, that they don’t know something, they’re afraid of something, or they’re not aware of something. And of course, groups that have been together long enough quickly understand that not everyone in that room is an expert in everything. And it’s among the reasons they’re there. Everyone brings different strengths to the table. And this is how they help each other. But sometimes it can take a little bit of time for people who have to stick their toes in the water a little bit and feel like, “Ugh, you know, I’m going to have to admit that I don’t know something.” And they don’t want to have everyone else in the room feeling like they’re being judged for not knowing that. That can be tricky.

Jay Goltz:
I find that very sad and probably true. To me, that’s why you join a group. I just find that very sad actually.

Leo Bottary:
And they get there eventually.

Sarah Segal:
Do group members sign NDAs?

Leo Bottary:
In a lot of groups, yes. There’s a confidentiality agreement.

Loren Feldman:
Jay, Laura Zander said on this podcast that she doesn’t want to be a member of a group because she doesn’t want to compare herself to a lot of highly successful people who are going to force her to leave every meeting thinking, “Darn, there’s 12 things I should be doing that I’m not doing.”

Jay Goltz:
And I have the opposite approach. I would leave there thinking, “Wow, I need to work on that.”

Loren Feldman:
All right, we’re just about out of time here. I’ve got two quick questions before we end. First, Sarah, are you still interested?

Sarah Segal:
Yeah, I mean, I’m not gonna jump into the water headfirst. I think that what Leo said about asking a lot of questions is a good place to start, maybe even going and sitting in on a meeting. I am the kind of person who is always looking to make my business better. So yeah, I’m interested. And, you know, if my P&L allows me to do it next year, maybe it will be something that I put in my budget.

Loren Feldman:
Last question for you, Leo. My friend, Jay, here, obviously has some strongly held views about business groups. My question for you is: If you were a Vistage chair, do you want Jay in your group?

Leo Bottary:
I want Jay in my group.

Loren Feldman:
Because?

Leo Bottary:
Because I think Jay listens, but he also has clarity about what he believes. And I think that’s good. And I think that’s a perspective that people need to hear. The issue isn’t whether everyone agrees or any of this other stuff. It’s that Jay brings a history of someone who has been involved in a half a dozen groups for well over 30 years of business experience and business acumen, things that are, I think, nuggets for everybody in the group. And I think that they would grow to appreciate Jay just as we do on this podcast. You know, it’s great. So I would welcome him in my group.

Loren Feldman:
All right, my thanks to Jay Goltz, Sarah Segal, and especially Leo Bottary. And also thanks to our sponsor, Work Better Now. Have a good week, everybody.