There’s Big Money All Over the Place

Introduction:

This week, Shawn Busse tells Jay Goltz and Sarah Segal that he sees all kinds of opportunities for small businesses, including his own, in the coming wave of climate-related government spending and tax credits. Count Jay among the convinced. He’s got four buildings, five vans, a truck, some Sprinters, and a parking lot where he could put a charging station. If there’s government money available for upgrades, he asks, “Why wouldn’t I do that?” Plus, Jay explains how he’s rethinking his search for an HR person. And Sarah tells us she’s ready to meet in the metaverse.

— Loren Feldman

Guests:

Sarah Segal is CEO of Segal Communications.

Jay Goltz is CEO of The Goltz Group.

Shawn Busse is CEO of Kinesis.

Producer:

Jess Thoubboron is founder of Blank Word Productions.

Full Episode Transcript:

Loren Feldman:
Welcome Shawn, Jay, and Sarah. Great to have you all here. Shawn, you’ve been open with us about the fact that the pandemic kind of threw off your marketing game and that you’ve been struggling a bit to figure out what to do going forward. But we talked earlier this week, and I gather you’ve got kind of a new idea, a new opportunity that you see. Can you tell us about that?

Shawn Busse:
Yeah, it’s actually an idea that my team brought to me a while back before any kind of legislation was passed, but they were really interested in getting into sustainability and the green economy and bringing in more businesses that were in that space. And I’m intrigued by that. I’m kind of fascinated by a lot of the science and technology. But then I started looking into the recent—it’s called the Inflation Reduction Act, which is kind of funny—but it’s a lot of money. I mean, it’s like $700 billion over 10 years. And of that, almost $370 billion is really kind of dedicated to the energy and green economy.

And I’ve been researching. This is going to have this really profound impact on our society and our economy. And especially at a time when there’s a lot of uncertainty about how the economy is doing, the government’s going to be pushing money into the sector. And I started looking at our client base, and I realized that some of our very best clients are already working in this space. I just hadn’t really connected the dots.

So, a good example: I have an automation-engineering client that’s just fantastic. They did this really amazing, high-altitude wind project a while back. This was long before any kind of money was in it. This is private money, not government money. I have a client that’s doing stuff with wave energy on the Oregon coast. I have clients that are in the HVAC space. I have clients that are in the building-science space.

Loren Feldman:
How would it affect a company in the HVAC space?

Shawn Busse:
So the vast majority of our buildings are terrible from an energy-use and consumption perspective. And so you’re gonna see just this massive overhaul of how those buildings work—from heating, cooling, energy consumption, electrification. And so if you’re in the HVAC space, you’re going to want to get on the cutting edge of that stuff. You’re going to want to get to where you understand the advanced technology that’s going to need to go into these buildings. So as somebody who provides support for those types of businesses, I mean, we have a lot of clients that are in the HVAC space. We have a lot of clients that are engineers that work with buildings.

The technology is changing super, super fast. And if you can adapt to that technology, as a business, there’s a lot of money that’s going to be out there and a lot of demand that’s going to be created. And so I’ve never really got into a niche, because I really enjoy diversity. I’m kind of like Sarah. She’s got her donut client, and she’s got these tech clients. I really like that. And my team likes that. But I see a thread. I’d say probably half of our customers are already touching this space. And I see just this massive opportunity coming down the road and super excited about it. I think there’s a lot of room there.

Loren Feldman:
It intrigues me that you see half of your clients touched by this. It doesn’t sound like all your clients are in technology, or some green-related field, or energy-related.

Jay Goltz:
Well, they could be touched by it, like me, as I’m listening. I knew nothing about this. I’ve got four buildings. So I’ve got major heating/air conditioning issues, and if there’s money to go ahead and upgrade this… I bought this building I’m sitting in 22 years ago. I’m sure the technology is old, when I put the boiler in back then. If there’s money available to upgrade that and save some money, why wouldn’t I do that?

Shawn Busse:
Yeah, and Jay, you’re going to see such an opportunity. I was looking into the EV tax credits as an example. So they are extending the EV tax credits, which all of them had expired or were expiring, so that’s great. But on the fleet level, on the business fleet level, there’s massive money. This morning, I was looking into, if you are a fleet owner—you own vehicles for your business—there’s a tax credit for vehicles that weigh under 14,000 pounds. So think about a little Chevy Bolt driving around picking up stuff, small stuff. But the real big ones are the 14,000-pound vehicles and above. So think like a van, a bigger vehicle. They have up to $40,000 tax credit.

And then the charging stations themselves, you can now put them in as a building owner and get the 30-percent tax credit. And it’s not capped, like it was before. You can get up to $100,000. So there are folks like me, like the service providers who want to help businesses that are in this space. I want to help the electrical company that’s not very good at marketing and is not very good at positioning and branding and culture. They can get in front of this stuff and go to guys like you, Jay, and be like, “All right, Jay, we can modernize your building. We can put EV chargers in. You can buy these vans that now are going to reduce your ongoing maintenance costs because they’re electric, instead of gas or diesel.”

Jay Goltz:
No, I’ve got five vans. I’ve got an 18-foot truck. I’ve got some Sprinters. And yeah, that’s very interesting. And I’ve got a parking lot where I can put a charger in.

Sarah Segal:
Shawn, two questions. First: Are you applying these kinds of changes to your own personal existence? Do you have solar panels? Do you have other green things in your existence? Is this something that you’re passionate about?

Shawn Busse:
Yeah, so I’m building a house and an art studio right now. And this couldn’t have come at a better time, because I’m basically running all the conduit so that I can have an EV charger that I can run solar off the roof, because all this stuff is gonna get way cheaper in the coming years. The tax credits were expiring on a lot of this stuff. They’re just expanding everything. So on a consumer level, there are awesome opportunities, too.

Sarah Segal:
What is your source for business owners? Say Jay decides that, yeah, he really wants to go for the lighter-load trucks to cut costs and get those tax credits. Where are you finding the resources for the average person to take a look at, in terms of their own business?

Shawn Busse:
This stuff is everywhere out there. I mean, I did a quick search, because I knew it was out there. I was like, “What are the exact numbers?” So I typed in “EV fleet tax credit,” or “EV fleet Inflation Reduction Act,” and there’s tons of information both put out by the federal government—they’ve got some nice one-pagers—as well as Forbes, Inc. All the business publications have done pretty good reporting on this stuff.

Sarah Segal:
I mean, this stuff applies to a lot of different industries. We worked with a client named GoCarma. And what they were working on was reducing emissions for commuter traffic by incentivizing people to drive at different times and different routes. It’s a pilot project that just got renewed as a real project in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, but they have received some of those dollars. And it’s been a really big source of revenue that’s enabling them to apply it to different cities. It’s really interesting to watch.

Jay Goltz:
Is that “Carma” with a C?

Sarah Segal:
With a C: GoCarma.

Shawn Busse:
Yeah, I think this is a great example of how municipalities, and especially utilities, are going to really start changing the way we behave and operate. It’s so funny, folks are like, “Oh, gosh, the government is forcing us into electric vehicles.” Actually, that’s not true. The market is forcing us into electric vehicles. GM and Ford and all these major car companies are like, “We’re going to electrify our entire fleet.” They’re just going to do it, because they’ve seen what Tesla did. And they’re like, “That’s where the money is.” And it’s not going to be linear. It’s going to be geometric in growth.

Jay Goltz:
So do you think that the accounting firms are going to end up being a major source of getting the news out there to their clients?

Shawn Busse:
Let’s just say I haven’t received any communication from my accounting firm on any of this stuff. They’re terrible. They’re terrible marketers. They’re terrible communicators.

Jay Goltz:
I don’t know if this is marketing. I kind of feel like the accounting firms, if you’re with a bigger one, should have the responsibility to let their clients know. It’s taxation. “Here are some tax benefits.” I would think.

Shawn Busse:
I think the bigger ones will. When I say marketing, I just mean communications, like getting things out, being proactive, letting folks know, “Here’s an opportunity.” Because most accounting firms are reactive. They process your tax return and tell you, “Oh, you owe this money,” as opposed to being proactive. So I think that’s why I wanted to get the word out today about this for anybody listening to this. There’s big money all over the place.

Loren Feldman:
Shawn, you said that as many as half of your clients will be touched by this. Do you have any sense what percentage of your clients are aware of that?

Shawn Busse:
Hmm, that’s a really good question. I think it’s pretty low at this point. Because when I say “touched by,” the guys doing work on the coast with the wave-generated power, they’ve already been doing that. They didn’t need the government to be excited about this space.

Loren Feldman:
But I’m guessing this could probably help. And it will make a difference to them.

Shawn Busse:
Oh, yeah, definitely. I think there’s a lack of awareness on this.

Loren Feldman:
So what’s the opportunity for you? How are you going to try to take advantage of this?

Shawn Busse:
Well, for me, as I look at our client base, and I look at like, “Who are the really great clients?” it’s kind of funny, but a lot of them are engineering-related businesses. So think about creating robots. Think about engineering-building systems. And the reason those customers are really good for us is that they are great at their work. They’ve struggled though with communicating why it’s relevant for their customers. They’re just not really good communicators: How are we different? What’s remarkable about what we do? They’re just really good makers. They’re really good at building things.

So we’re a great fit for those types of customers. Why they’re also a good fit for us is that our process is very much a hold their hand, help them understand marketing, and walk them through it in a very prescriptive, educational way. So we take marketing and break it down into component parts, as opposed to, “We’re the wizards and we have a black box of magic, and we’re going to do stuff and then you’re going to love it.” So we help them understand it and they appreciate that, right?

Essentially, what I’ve learned is that these businesses that sell something kind of complex that’s hard to understand are a good fit for us because we can help them communicate that. And they know how to make money. So they have margin. They can actually invest in the kind of stuff that we do. And so they’re great clients. But they’re under-served. They’re not sexy. They’re not shoe companies. They’re not the type of clients that most consultancies are excited to work with. And we are. So it’s a great fit.

Jay Goltz:
I think, Loren, you’re gonna have to change the name of this to 22 Hats, because this is another hat for an entrepreneur to have. Shawn, you bring up an excellent point: You can’t count on your accounting firm to do this. This money’s out there. It didn’t used to be out there. And this is one more hat we have to wear of looking for government programs that will be useful for us that we should keep our eyes open for.

Loren Feldman:
Actually, Jay, you don’t have to wear another hat. You just have to subscribe to 21 Hats. Sarah, do you see a PR opportunity here? Is there an opportunity for the early adopters to brag about their green credentials and make hay out of that?

Sarah Segal:
Oh, that’s greenwashing, 100 percent. People are already doing that. It’s like the equivalent of pinkwashing for October. Most people will see right through it. I’m not a big fan of greenwashing. But if they’re doing it, and it’s just a natural part of the values of their business, like 100 percent, if that’s what you believe. But if you’re like a makeup brand that uses animals to test their products, and then you go say, “Oh, well, we’re going to deliver them with zero-emission vehicles,” like you’re not saying and doing. You’re just talking.

And so I think most people will do it because of the economics of it. If it’s gonna save you money, or gain you tax credits, or what have you, that’s what’s going to incentivize most business owners. Most business owners, they have good intentions, and they want to be green, and they want to do well for the environment. But as Jay said, we keep adding hats to our responsibilities. I personally would love to have a new office all green and sustainable and this and that, but there’s a huge investment that goes into creating that, which I can’t personally afford right now.

Jay Goltz:
So this probably falls under the finance hat or the accounting hat. Or, Loren, as you said, if it is legitimately an authentic green thing, and you’re not greenwashing—it is legitimate—it could also fall under the marketing hat, if you’ve done something that is legitimate and not just made up to try to get publicity.

Shawn Busse:
Well, it also falls into the business strategy category. So like, where are you going to position your business in the future that can potentially overlap in this space? Regardless of whether people are doing it for altruistic reasons, or as Sarah’s saying, they’re doing it for financial reasons. I think that for owners to start thinking about, where is it possible for our business to overlap in this space? Regardless of your politics, or regardless of whether you think, “Oh my God, I never want to give up my diesel truck.”

I’m an old school pragmatist. I was born and raised in the rural part of Oregon. And I just believe: How do you meet people where they’re at? And you think about a business like Jay’s: It’s a no-brainer for him to start thinking about how to electrify his fleet. The maintenance costs on those internal combustion engines—just the cost of filling them with fuel is crazy.

Jay Goltz:
Yeah, I just put a hundred dollars in my car, and my car doesn’t have a gigantic tank. I’ve got, I think, 12 vehicles and my gas bill every month is thousands of dollars. So there’s no question. That’s something that’s worth looking into.

Shawn Busse:
Where I first kind of clued into this as a business opportunity, I had a client a number of years ago, and they were doing lighting retrofits. So they would go into a factory that was dim and dingy and kind of hard to see things, and they would replace all these high bay lights that were super energy hogs, and then would get the government to basically subsidize a huge chunk of that swap out. And they would just basically build a spreadsheet and show the owner, “This investment will pay for itself within two years,” and then after that, it’s like printing money. And so they just built a massive business, basically going and swapping stuff out. This is before the inflation Reduction Act stuff.

Jay Goltz:
Was that the government? Or was it the utilities, like ComEd in Illinois gives you a credit?

Shawn Busse:
It was often a combination. So it would be a combination of utilities coming together and forming the pool of money or the government providing tax credits on a regional level. The state governments would provide some of them. So it was a combination of things. I mean, the guy built one of the fastest growing companies in the region, huge profitability. He just dominated with this new business model. And that was all a strategic play.

Jay Goltz:
Did it run out of gas?

Shawn Busse:
No, I mean, it’s not as easy as it used to be, I’m sure, because a lot of those incentives expired. But I suspect now he’s looking at this new legislation going, “Okay, how am I going to slot into this?”

Jay Goltz:
Thank you, Shawn. I feel like I’m making money just listening to you.

Shawn Busse:
That’s what I’m here for.

Loren Feldman:
All right, let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsor, Work Better Now.

[Message from our sponsor, Work Better Now]

And we’re back. Next topic. Jay, we’ve talked a few times on the podcast about your challenges trying to replace your head of HR, who left. Any updates? How’s it going?

Jay Goltz:
Okay, so I just want to give my philosophy, which I’m sticking with, which is: I believe if you’re careful who you hire, you only want to hire great people. You’re probably going to get 100 resumes, of which you’re going to interview five or 10. And out of that, one’s going to be the person. So this round, I haven’t gotten 100 resumes. I’m probably up to 60.

Loren Feldman:
You’ve been frustrated by that.

Jay Goltz:
I wouldn’t use the word frustrated, because I’m kind of going with the flow here. I knew it wasn’t going to be simple. So I’m going through it, and I went from going for someone who was in charge of HR to I took somebody who’s been with me for 30 years. She’s going to take it over, because she knows the company, she’s not going anywhere, and she’s very good at this stuff. And we’re gonna hire her a human resource coordinator, which will cost less, and take a lot of the work off her plate. So we feel good about that transition.

Loren Feldman:
You initially were…

Jay Goltz:
Looking for an HR director.

Loren Feldman:
Right, and now you’re looking for a more junior person.

Jay Goltz:
I’ll tell you what the problem is. Companies smaller than me don’t have HR people. Most HR people, just by definition, are working at bigger companies where there’s growth potential, and there are more assistants. And I’m kind of a big little company. So I don’t know that this is a plum job for a lot of people who are looking for an HR job. Whereas an HR coordinator, that’s a much easier thing to hire for.

So we changed the ad. I rewrote the ad. I put in there: “a company that’s known for their customer service and dedication to both the customer and the employees,” and, “been in business 43 years, was featured on the front cover of Inc. magazine.” I mean, I put good stuff in there. And we’re getting some applicants—not as many as I thought.

I’m just gonna give you a flavor for what I’m getting. There’s one question on the application through Indeed—I’m using both Indeed and ZipRecruiter—and there’s one place that says, “Why is this position of interest to you?” Okay, I think that’s an important one. I want to see if they read the ad and whether they’re engaged. One said, “I’m helping them achieve their goals and aspirations for employment.” Okay. Here’s another one: “I’d like to be in an HR role, since it’s what I went to school for.” Okay, not really inspiring. “I think it would be a great fit.” Okay. Here’s one, this person is looking for $126,000 a year, and they wrote down, “It.” That’s it. “It.”

Now, I’m starting to think people are using this to go to sleep, and they start typing things out. She fell asleep after she got “it.” I think she was gonna go, “It sounds like it…” but she just went to sleep. I got one that said—and I didn’t pick out the funny ones, this is what I’m getting. I got almost no good ones that took a little time. Like, can you give me 30 seconds to act like you read the ad and said something like, “Your company sounds like they kind of,” whatever. Okay, here’s one: “lifelong learner committed to improving the workplace for under-represented individuals.” All right. So I say to myself, “Sounds like they’re a little mission-driven, which is what I need, what I like.”

So we scheduled the interview for yesterday at 9 a.m., which I try to avoid because it’s hard to get here with the rush hour. And she canceled an hour before she was supposed to be there. So we’re still getting resumes in. Now, I’ve interviewed three people. One of them we liked. She didn’t go to college, but she’s clawed her way up. She’s working in a company doing their recruiting, and she’s doing their HR. And she was looking for $90,000, which we thought was a lot of money for her background and her experience. So we said no, but she called us back a couple days ago and said, “I saw your new ad. Will you consider me for this?” Absolutely! So she’s coming in again, and she might be a perfect fit for that. We have to decide: Is she going to be happy with the money difference? Was she throwing darts in the air at the $90k? I don’t know. But that’s a possibility. But the moral of the story in the big picture is: I’m not going to hire somebody till the right person shows up.

Sarah Segal:
Do you require any of your applicants—like when you get down to the final three—to do any sample work for you? We do that.

Jay Goltz:
I haven’t. Probably not a bad idea. The joke is: Just this application, they’re so bad at filling this out that most of them, I mean, the one that said she went to school for this, she left the “l” off of school. Really? So some of them screened themselves out just in the application, but that’s probably not a bad idea.

Sarah Segal:
We make our applicants do a sample campaign, where we say, “Here’s one of our clients. They’re coming out with a new diamond, donut, truck, EV, whatever it is. This is the date that it’s going to launch. How would you go about publicizing this? And write me a pitch and kind of put together what that calendar looks like.” It’s a made-up opportunity, but it’s reflective of the stuff that we actually do. And some of them knock it out of the park, and some of them can’t write. We have to have people that know how to write.

Jay Goltz:
No, it’s a problem that people graduate college, and I mean, if you don’t know how to spell, with computers, is there an excuse left for why you’re sending out—

Sarah Segal:
Grammarly. Everybody should have Grammarly. I buy it, and I provide it to every one of my employees. They’re very good writers, and they’re very good at spelling and all that kind of stuff. But sometimes you miss stuff and if you just drop it into that, it helps double-check it, and you’re good to go. But nothing can go to a client that has a typo.

Jay Goltz:
I haven’t gotten to that level yet. Because no one’s gotten through the first screen.

Shawn Busse:
Well, Jay, I mean, Sarah’s describing a bottom-of-funnel solution, and you’ve got a top-of-funnel problem.

Jay Goltz:
Right. Absolutely.

Shawn Busse:
So I’m curious, what are you doing about the top-of-funnel for employee recruitment?

Jay Goltz:
I’m still getting one or two a day, and I’m just waiting till the right one shows up.

Shawn Busse:
No, but what are you doing? You’re describing what’s happening to you? But what do you do?

Jay Goltz:
Well, what I did was I changed the job description. I put the money thing in there now. I didn’t used to. So now the money thing is in there, I changed …

Loren Feldman:
The money thing, meaning a salary range?

Jay Goltz:
The salary range.

Shawn Busse:
I think that’s great.

Jay Goltz:
Yeah, for sure. And I didn’t used to, but I put that in there. I’m pretty confident that we’re gonna find somebody in the next two-three weeks.

Sarah Segal:
Have you asked your own staffers, like do you do referral fees for your staffers, where they may know somebody who’s in HR who wants to change roles and would be excited to work with them?

Jay Goltz:
I’m just going through in my head, my employees. I just don’t know if those are the circles they run in. I certainly can ask.

Sarah Segal:
We don’t do that. But there are a lot of companies that will say, “Hey, you send us a good employee, we’re gonna put a little bonus on your check.”

Jay Goltz:
This is the kind of job that is unlike any of the people that work here. And I certainly can try that. But I don’t think it’s the kind of thing, “Oh, I’ve got a friend…”

Sarah Segal:
I don’t know. I have friends who are doctors, and you know, it’s not in my world. People know people. Neighbors.

Shawn Busse:
I like Sarah’s idea. I’m very hesitant to put money onto it, because honestly, I’ve heard of folks doing that. I’ve not heard of anybody saying it’s awesome.

Jay Goltz:
I used to do it in the factory, and it does backfire sometimes. And you have to answer to them as to why their friend who you brought in didn’t work out. Now all of a sudden you’re answering to them. And it’s like, none of their business. It’s tricky.

Shawn Busse:
Yeah, I want the incentive to be, “I want to work with great people.” I don’t want the incentive to be, “I want to make a few bucks.” So that’s where I worry about the financial incentive.

Loren Feldman:
Shawn, do you have a suggestion for Jay’s top-of-funnel problem?

Shawn Busse:
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s worth—how many employees do you have, Jay?

Jay Goltz:
130.

Shawn Busse:
So like, do you have any kind of employee communications platform, like an ongoing newsletter or anything like that?

Jay Goltz:
No.

Shawn Busse:
So I’d consider starting that, which your HR person should probably be in charge of, your people leader, but to have ongoing communication, saying, “Hey, this is what we’re looking for. You may not know somebody in your direct circle, but maybe you could talk to your friends,” and that kind of thing.

Jay Goltz:
That’s certainly worth doing. And the person who I put in charge, she’s good at that stuff. I’ll have her do that, for sure.

Shawn Busse:
That’s where I would start.

Jay Goltz:
I’m gonna find someone in the next few weeks. I’m absolutely confident that it’s just a matter of time. I mean, it’s not like it dried up. I’m getting one or two a day. So it’s just a numbers game, as far as I’m concerned.

Shawn Busse:
The other thing I’ve found that’s been a good strategy—and this is a little bit mercenary of me, and I feel a little bad—is I figured out a long time ago that there’s a point in every nonprofit employee’s life where they realize that they’re tired of not making any money. And nonprofit folks can make really amazing employees, because they tend to have a sense of purpose, and meaning is what motivates them. And so if you can come and find where those folks congregate, and you know, basically give them an option…

Sarah Segal:
I agree with Shawn. One of my best and favorite and most wonderful recent hires, she was a producer and worked in public television for years, and then moved into nonprofits and managing programs for them. And she is just smart and capable and driven. And it’s a good resource.

Jay Goltz:
I don’t think I’ve ever heard you say anything, Shawn, that I could disagree with more than that. I think that that could be true, but I think that there are plenty of people working at nonprofits who could never survive in the for-profit world. It’s just different. And I’m not saying all or nothing, but I don’t think—

Shawn Busse:
Those are usually not the ones who leave it. So what I’m saying is like the high performers, eventually, they—

Jay Goltz:
Okay, you said most. It’s not most of them. Some of them I would go with. Okay, I can buy that. Some of them figure out they need to make more money, but I don’t know that it’s most of them.

Shawn Busse:
I mean, it’s the same way PR firms have figured out they can poach from journalism, right? Journalism doesn’t pay very well, and yet it demands a lot of you. And so, yeah, ex-journalists are often really great in the PR space, because they work hard. They’re not accustomed to getting paid a lot of money. So when you pay them a reasonable salary, they’re like, “Wow,” and then they never go back. And then we destroy journalism in America.

Jay Goltz:
So you think I should be hanging out at vegetarian restaurants and stuff?

Shawn Busse:
Well, for example, in Portland, there’s a job board for nonprofits, and we advertise on it when we open up a position. And it’s been great for us. We’ve gotten some of our best employees from there. It’s amazing.

Jay Goltz:
That might be the difference between Portland and Chicago.

Loren Feldman:
I bet there are some nonprofits in Chicago.

Sarah Segal:
I think you should try it, Jay.

Jay Goltz:
No, I’ll try anything.

Sarah Segal:
Try it and report back.

Shawn Busse:
I guess one other thing I would add is that I think we have somewhat moved from the era of: Just put a job out there and you’ll get people. You actually have to strategically go after people. And that needs to become the HR people champion’s job, is building relationships before you need to hire for the role. It’s kind of a recruiting job.

Sarah Segal:
Recruiters, all they do is, they find people with similar qualifications that are a level below what you want to hire for and reach out to them on LinkedIn and say, “Hey, you want to get promoted? This is a great opportunity.”

Jay Goltz:
That might be my next step. I don’t disagree with that at all. I’m thinking that I’m just gonna leave the hook in the water a little bit longer before I move on to that, but I’m just surprised that people who are in HR, how little energy they put into this application. I’m talking about, just put one sentence in there instead of “it.”

Shawn Busse:
It’s a dysfunctional field. The problem is that for years, HR was underpaid, underappreciated, and positioned as the enemy of the employees. So you’ve got a lot of that legacy in there. I really like your “I’m going to hire a junior person,” because then your senior person can train them to behave in ways you want them to behave.

Jay Goltz:
This wasn’t a desperation move. I feel real good about this strategy. And I’ll tell you something else, which is a problem lately: This whole pandemic thing. You know, I used to go to my factory every Friday and have a meeting every Friday. I mean, I’m there occasionally, but I haven’t had a meeting there in two years. There are people over there, they don’t even know who I am.

Loren Feldman:
Why aren’t you doing it?

Jay Goltz:
Because of the pandemic. Nobody’s there. People still wear masks. I’m wearing a mask sometimes. We’re getting close.

Loren Feldman:
But why can’t you do it?

Jay Goltz:
Go over there and have meetings again?

Loren Feldman:
Yeah. Everybody’s wearing masks anyway.

Jay Goltz:
Well, it’s not foolproof. And there are still people who are very nervous about it. Like we still have two cafeterias we set up so they’re not sitting close to each other. Contrary to belief, it’s not completely over yet. And I’d just as soon wait a little.

Loren Feldman:
I didn’t mean to suggest that it was, but…

Sarah Segal:
Oh, it is in California. Like, you wouldn’t know that the pandemic was even a thing. Like, everybody’s over it.

Jay Goltz:
Oh, I can tell you. You go to some places, and most people have masks on.

Shawn Busse:
Wow.

Sarah Segal:
I went to a conference yesterday, I saw one person with a mask on. And there were like 600 people there.

Jay Goltz:
Wow. That’s surprising.

Sarah Segal:
So I have not had COVID yet. And neither has anybody in my family. So knock on wood.

Loren Feldman:
Sarah, tell us about that conference. What kind of conference did you go to?

Sarah Segal:
Oh, I don’t know that you want to know about my conference.

Loren Feldman:
I do. I do.

Sarah Segal:
I haven’t been to a conference for a while, but I went with a client of mine, who is a journalist who’s very interested in the metaverse. It’s a conference put on by The Economist, and very well attended. Basically, heads of startups to people who are working in divisions of, like, Ernst and Young trying to figure out how the metaverse is going to impact their businesses and their clients. But it was really cool just to see what it was about and where it is. We’re still in the nascent stages of what it could be. But how familiar is everybody here with what the metaverse is?

Loren Feldman:
Tell us like we’re five-year-olds, Sarah. Or 85-year-olds.

Jay Goltz:
Or 66-year-olds.

Sarah Segal:
So, I’m sure you guys have seen the kids put on these VR headsets and play things like Roblox, right? Where you get to kind of move through a gaming experience. The technical definition is a highly immersive visual world where people gather to socialize, play, and work. That’s how it’s defined. But there are a lot of non-gaming applications that are in the works that are super interesting. It can be applied to medicine. It can be applied to even just how people interact. My company, we just started having our meetings with clients in the metaverse, where we go into what’s called a work room and you put on your VR headset. You don’t actually have to have a VR headset to do it, because you can join through Google Meet.

But it brings you into what looks like an office and you can change the look and feel of it. It can be on the beach. It can be in a condo kind of feeling, like whatever it is, but you’re there. And what’s really cool about having calls on this space is that you really are part of it, like the three dimensionality of it.

Like, I’m looking at my client, and they’re an avatar, but the avatar, they dress themselves and create an avatar that looks like themselves. You get over that really, really quickly. Because you’re so excited to have that kind of… you could almost feel like you touch and feel them and have that conversation. Also, you’re wearing these headsets where there are no distractions. So my email isn’t going off in the background. My dog isn’t barking in the background. I’m literally just focused on the conversation. One of my staffers told me after the call, she’s like, “My cheeks hurt from smiling the whole time.”

Loren Feldman:
To the extent we know anything about the metaverse, we just heard that—I think probably simultaneously to you being at this conference—Facebook was announcing, or Meta was announcing, that it had lost $20 billion or something on its metaverse investment.

Sarah Segal:
But the same day that that happened was the official distribution of their new VR headset, and now everybody’s excited about that. So they almost strategically said, “Okay, our numbers aren’t looking good. Let’s release something cool that everybody’s gonna be excited about.” And they did that.

Loren Feldman:
Tell me this, Sarah: Do you see the metaverse playing a role in the way you run your business anytime in the near future?

Sarah Segal:
Well, you know, I think people are still trying to figure that out. But we’ve started having all of our pitch presentations in person, again, because it was recommended on this podcast that I do that. And I think we’re two for two for two now.

Loren Feldman:
It helped.

Sarah Segal:
Yeah, it’s helped. Short of that, couldn’t you meet in the metaverse instead? Because right now, everybody in the metaverse, you look like a cartoon. But I don’t think that that’s permanent. We’re not all going to look like cartoons. At some point, they’re going to figure out how to do a 3D scan of what I look like, put me in the metaverse where I can talk and speak to people like I was there in real life and not look like a cartoon.

But there were cool things. We did a test drive with this company Haptic, and they make these gloves, where you put these gigantic gloves on—everyone’s trying to make everything smaller, slowly but surely—where forced, pressurized air gets pushed into your hands. But you can actually pick things up and touch things and feel them. Things that don’t exist in real life, but that only exist in the metaverse.

So think about the applications for that in terms of medicine. So somebody needs surgery in a third-world country. We have a surgeon in Boston, who’s very good at whatever this is. Theoretically, ten years from now or even sooner, they can put on these gloves, they can put on goggles, they can conduct the surgery without actually going to the third-world country. That is the kind of application that everybody was kind of talking about.

Loren Feldman:
Will Jay be able to frame a picture in another country without going there?

Jay Goltz:
How people were talking about picture framing?

Sarah Segal:
Jay, so here you go. You can offer the service of, “We will help you measure your space and lay out where your photographs want to be hung on your picture wall by joining us in the metaverse.” You can say, “Hey, I want you to build a 21 Hats building where people can just drop in and talk about business problems, where it’s not just Jay, Loren, Shawn, and I. You can go into the 21 Hats space in the metaverse and speak to like-minded people, like Vistage. You can have groups there.

Jay Goltz:
How do we know you were actually there, and you haven’t just imagined now, because it was so immersive and you didn’t leave your house?

Sarah Segal:
I know. Today, they’re actually doing a second day where it’s all in the metaverse. So like, I can rejoin and walk through—they’ve set up a whole virtual stage.

Loren Feldman:
You can do that by going there, or from your home office?

Sarah Segal:
From my home. They’ve created a mainstage, where you can join via your Oculus, and sit in the audience, and watch the interviews with thought leaders in the space.

Shawn Busse:
So let me ask you this question. Since you’re using an Oculus…

Jay Goltz:
Wait, wait. For the impaired at home: Can we talk about what an Oculus is?

Sarah Segal:
It’s that big white thing you put on your face. Have you seen that?

Loren Feldman:
You’ve probably seen commercials that show it.

Sarah Segal:
Yeah, it’s a goggle. It looks like a ski goggle.

Jay Goltz:
Okay, got it.

Shawn Busse:
So am I doing business with Facebook by using this device? Do I have to go through Facebook?

Sarah Segal:
No, there are like 36 different worlds, quote-unquote. I’m still learning about it. I am not an expert. But Facebook owns certain worlds and certain experiences and stuff. But they just rebranded themselves and people are kind of like, they create good products. You know, the Oculus works, and it works well.

Shawn Busse:
I would challenge that a little bit. I think they buy good products.

Sarah Segal:
Well, that may happen too.

Shawn Busse:
Their innovation track record is really shitty, like their online dating, their currency. Like, anything they try to create on their own has been mediocre at best.

Sarah Segal:
Well, isn’t isn’t their mantra like, work quickly and…

Loren Feldman:
And break things.

Shawn Busse:
Move fast and break things—like democracy. But anyway, I guess my number one concern here is I think there’s a tremendous opportunity, especially around augmented reality. Like to your idea with Jay, to be able to show Jay, “Here’s my living room. I want to create a gallery wall. Here’s the art I have.” And then for Jay’s designers to organize and frame that in virtual would be an amazing business opportunity for him.

Jay Goltz:
I just want to clue you into something. There are certainly people who are all over that. And they’ve all hemorrhaged tens and tens of millions of dollars, and I don’t think that it’s a huge problem at the moment. So, you know…

Shawn Busse:
It’s early.

Jay Goltz:
Companies are hemorrhaging a gazillion dollars. And everyone’s not going, “Oh my God, I can finally hang some pictures on my wall!” It’s not keeping a lot of people up at night.

Shawn Busse:
Well, the mistake those companies are making is they’re trying to own the market, as opposed to where I think your future lies, Jay. You wait until these technologies become cheap and easy for you to use.

Jay Goltz:
The old expression: the second mouse gets the cheese.

Sarah Segal:
You’re not in the early adopter space. Like, you don’t need that. But there are other places that need to be early adopters. Ernst & Young needs to be early adopters. They can’t service their clients if they’re not clued in to the potential of it. Architects love this stuff.

Shawn Busse:
That’s a huge opportunity. That’s really interesting, because I’m using Google SketchUp right now to visualize the building I’m building, but it’s really imperfect. And the ability to actually feel like, “Wow, I’m in this space, and I get a sense of the space,” that’s pretty awesome.

Sarah Segal:
Realtors, you can actually go and visit a house that’s for sale. You get the 360 imagery, but then you can actually go in and feel how the space feels. It’s cartoonish now, but it’s not going to be cartoonish in five to 10 years. It’s going to feel like it.

Jay Goltz:
All right, Loren, bring it back home. Bring it back to reality, will you?

Sarah Segal:
Jay is like, “I’m done with this.”

Jay Goltz:
We have to move from the West Coast, you two, to like the middle here, and now we’ve got to go East Coast to hit some harsh reality. Loren, you’re on.

Loren Feldman:
So Jay, what’s your metaverse strategy?

Jay Goltz:
My metaverse strategy is to go to lunch, when we’re done, and…

Shawn Busse:
See real people.

Jay Goltz:
See some real people.

Sarah Segal:
Jay, can you borrow an Oculus from some teenager who you know? And Loren, you, too, and Shawn, and meet me in the metaverse. I’ll send you an invite. I want you to see what it’s like.

Loren Feldman:
For anyone listening to this, who feels as though they might have gotten lost in the metaverse, yes, this is the 21 Hats Podcast. And yes, next week, we will probably be back on planet Earth, I think. My thanks to Shawn Busse, Jay Goltz, and Sarah Segal, and to our sponsor, Work Better Now. Thanks for sharing, guys.