We Haven’t Signed a New Client in Eight Months
Introduction:
This week, we meet Jaci Russo, the co-founder and CEO of BrandRusso and the latest addition to the 21 Hats Podcast team. Jaci tells Jay Goltz and Laura Zander how she went from working for Barry Diller to starting her marketing agency. Jaci also explains why she recently decided to introduce a four-day workweek and why she thinks her agency has now gone eight months and counting without signing up a new client—the longest such stretch in more than 20 years in business. “I find it interesting,” responds Jay. “You just said this is the first time you’ve ever had such a long period without new business. And, ‘Oh, we went to a four-day workweek.’ Hmm, how interesting.” Plus: Laura talks about what happened when venture-backed competitors came for the knitting industry and how stressful it is to buy and operate another business in another state.
— Loren Feldman
Guests:
Jaci Russo is CEO of BrandRusso.
Laura Zander is CEO of Jimmy Beans Wool.
Jay Goltz is CEO of The Goltz Group.
Producer:
Jess Thoubboron is founder of Blank Word.
Full Episode Transcript:
Loren Feldman:
Welcome, Jay, Laura, and especially Jaci Russo, who is the newest regular on our 21 Hats Podcast. It’s great to have you here, Jaci.
Jaci Russo:
Thanks for having me.
Loren Feldman:
Give us some background. Where are you? How did you come to start your marketing agency?
Jaci Russo:
Sure. I am currently sitting in my downtown Lafayette, Louisiana office, which is where I tend to be most days. I grew up in this area, Cajun country, Louisiana. Ragin’ Cajuns might ring a bell. But after college, I moved to Los Angeles, worked for Creative Artists Agency, segued that into my first kind of entrepreneurial foray with two co-founders of a new startup production company and project development.
And then that landed me on the radar of Barry Diller, where I went to work for him as he was acquiring Home Shopping Network, Ticketmaster, USA Network, and a bunch of other companies. Did that for quite some time, most of the ‘90s, and then moved back to Lafayette. Didn’t have a job here. Kind of liked what I was doing there. Went to work for an ad agency, worked in-house for a client, and then started this agency in 2001.
Loren Feldman:
Wow. That’s a lot.
Jay Goltz:
Yeah, “wow” is right.
Loren Feldman:
Where do you stand now? How big is the agency?
Jaci Russo:
So in the 23 years that we have existed, we have grown now to be about 24, maybe 25 employees. Michael, who is the chief creative officer, is a graphic designer and copywriter by trade. He joined a few months in and we run the company together, which is a challenge, since we are also married to each other and have four kids together. But I figure the company is going to keep us together no matter what. It’s a lot easier to get divorced than to break up a company. And we will be celebrating our 25th wedding anniversary in October.
Jay Goltz:
That is really romantic. [Laughter]
Jaci Russo:
Thank you.
Jay Goltz:
Really, you’re gonna stay together because of the business. I didn’t think of that. Wow.
Jaci Russo:
I mean, I’m just telling you—
Jay Goltz:
No, I got it. Wait, I want to know, if I ran into Barry Diller somewhere, what would he say about you?
Jaci Russo:
He would tell you three things. One, that he did everything possible to keep me to stay, including buying the Fox affiliate in New Orleans, Louisiana, so that I could go work there and stay part of his company. He would tell you two, that when he first interviewed me, he did not hire me. He hired someone else. And they quit three hours into their first day, and my starting package got a lot better accordingly. And he would tell you, three, that—I think to this day, still—I am one of his favorites of all time, because I handled him better than everybody else in his orbit.
Jay Goltz:
Wow.
Laura Zander:
Wow.
Jay Goltz:
Great answer. When I go golfing with him, I’m gonna ask him what the story is. But, wow.
Jaci Russo:
He will ask you if you can get me back into his company.
Jay Goltz:
No, and I love the fact that you didn’t have to think about it. And you had your three things lined up. Okay, this is going to be a great ride we’re on here.
Loren Feldman:
Jaci, you told us you have about 25 employees. Can you give us a sense for the size, in terms of revenues?
Jaci Russo:
Sure. You know, we have had this weird kind of up, down, up, down, like most entrepreneurs and agencies. We’re sitting comfortably at about $3.5 million a year. I expected we’d be at $5 million this year. We’re gonna fall a little short of that. But we’ll hit that next year, the way we’re going.
Loren Feldman:
And do you specialize in a particular type of marketing, a particular type of client?
Jaci Russo:
We do. We started with a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none, please-pay-your-bills, and let-the-check-clear kind of approach in the beginning. And around about year three, four, five, we started to lean into our strengths, which were the combination of my strategy and Michael’s creative and our teams that emanate from there, and realized we were kind of doing some things differently than other places: a real focus on branding, but being strategic with it.
We define branding as the emotional connection that people have with a company, product, or service. So, everything you’re doing is a chance to build or break the brand. It gives us kind of an umbrella to work in. We developed a process that we trademarked in 2005, called Razor Branding, that we’ve written a book about. It’s got four core elements: focus, promise, connection, harmony. And it keeps our clients in line. And what we realized is, it really does work everywhere. Even as social media came online, it still worked. It’s a really good step-by-step guide.
But where our heart is, is in the B2B space. We find that retail is kind of easier. B2C is flashier. The B2B people have had such a challenge making changes, not just still doing things the same way they’ve always done. So all these companies are reaching the 20-, 30-, 40-year mark and needing to evolve. And so that’s been the space that we have had the most success in.
Laura Zander:
And in a particular industry in B2B?
Jaci Russo:
Industrial, manufacturing, professional services are kind of the orbits we live in.
Jay Goltz:
No, I have to tell you, what you said makes sense, that their core competency is not marketing—it’s either manufacturing or distribution—and that the world has changed dramatically in the last 20 years. And what you said makes perfect sense, that many of them have not kept up, have not evolved along, and you’re helping them catch up.
Laura Zander:
Jay, do you feel like you could use branding in your B2B business?
Jay Goltz:
No. [Laughter] Anything else you want to know?
Loren Feldman:
Jay, are you saying you don’t need branding because your branding is already so good? Or you just don’t need branding?
Jay Goltz:
No, no. Listen, everyone has branding. It’s a question of whether it’s good or not. But you have a brand. Your brand might be: He’s an idiot, he dresses bad, and he talks too much, whatever. Everyone’s got a brand. Do I have good branding? Yes, it’s all related to my core business. The wholesale that I have—I sell to picture-frame shops—and it’s related to the fact I’m a retailer. And so I do believe we’re communicating properly with them, and it resonates with them, because we’re also framers. That’s part of why the business has been successful. We get it because we’re in their shoes.
So yeah, I don’t think we have any off-branding with it. And I’m not spending a ton of money on anything with advertising, anyway. But, no. Listen, I’ve got lots of issues. That’s not the top. I’ve got technology issues. I don’t have branding issues.
Loren Feldman:
Jaci, you also started kind of a side business, didn’t you?
Jaci Russo:
I did. So, one of the things that sort of evolved from the social media explosion in ‘08-‘09 was the need for parents to better understand social media and schools. And having kids at that time in junior high and middle school, I had a personal vested interest in everybody doing a better job with living online.
And so I started teaching classes, and I really liked it. And I’m good at it. And I enjoyed it. And so that evolved into teaching marketing classes for small businesses. As my agency has grown, our clients get bigger and bigger. We don’t have the avenue now to work with small startups, but I have a passion for them. And those small businesses are really what makes the world go round. And I want them to have professional guidance, even when they can’t necessarily afford an agency.
So I started teaching these brand builder classes, built an entire training studio, booked up a whole year of sessions. It was awesome. It was 2020—they all got canceled. So I took all those classes, recorded them, and put them online: BrandStateU.com. It’s been great. People can come in, take the training, learn and do things. They get monthly lessons and guides and knowledge, and it’s awesome. And then I spent three years getting certified in the state of Louisiana. We have a couple of programs, through our unemployment fund, that reimburse up to $3,000 per year per employee for professional development training.
So now a business can find their recent graduate, or secretary assistant who’s going to do some marketing, and put them through marketing school and be refunded for the cost that it takes. It’s a win-win for everybody. So now we’re evolving it even further. I’ve brought in four amazing trainers, so now we cover sales, marketing, professional development, personal development, communications, leadership, all the HR soft skills, and anybody can bring a trainer into their space and leave smarter.
Loren Feldman:
Who’s signing up for these courses?
Jaci Russo:
Well, we’re still focusing on small businesses. And so that’s what’s happening right now. We’re seeing it from retail stores—a small jewelry store, a clothing store—insurance agents, realtors, and a lot of companies that have gotten to that one-, two-year mark and don’t know how to take that next step.
They don’t know how to get the word out. They think it’s about spending money on advertising, not really appreciating the free—I mean, it takes time, but not cash—resources they can utilize to build their brands. And so I am seeing people signing up knowing that they want to have a better culture. They want their employees to be better trained. And so it’s kind of evolving from there.
Loren Feldman:
Didn’t you also recently take some kind of cruise?
Jaci Russo:
We did. So if you’re gonna give me a chance to put a bunch of people in a room, teach them some important things—which I always learn something at the same time, it’s not completely altruistic—and go on a vacation, I’m here for it all day long. So we started something called the Women’s Summit at Sea. We just did one in September. We sold out our first one. It was through Royal Caribbean. We sailed out of Galveston. It was a five-day Caribbean cruise. We went to Cozumel and Costa Maya. But when we were at sea, half days, we had classes.
And I brought in Melissa Bowen, who has the Authenticity Center. And it was her talking about internal development, soft skills, boundaries, trust. She’s a therapist by trade and a coach by training. And then I talked about marketing. So it was really about building your brand from the inside out. And she’s Brene Brown-certified, so it kind of tied all those pieces together. It was awesome.
So we’ve got two scheduled for ‘24. One in April that will be co-ed, one in September that’s all women again. And we just signed the contract with Royal Caribbean for ‘25, because we’re taking our show to the Mediterranean.
Laura Zander:
I’m wondering, is there anything that’s going wrong in your business? Or is everything just perfect?
Jaci Russo:
Let me give you the whole list. So, things that go wrong.
Laura Zander:
Okay, great.
Jaci Russo:
Things that go wrong: In 23 years, the number of times I’ve hired people that were mismatched, misfit. We didn’t have a very good training process. We still don’t. We’re improving it, but boy, is it far from where it needs to be. I looked back, in the 23 years of this business, the longest drought we’ve ever had in between new clients was three months. And that only happened three times in 23 years—until this year. And we are in our eighth month and still counting. So the palms sweat, heart races.
Laura Zander:
Great. I’m glad you’re suffering, too. That makes me feel better.
Jaci Russo:
Oh my God. Eight months and counting. It’s like—
Loren Feldman:
Jaci, how do you explain that? Why do you think that has happened?
Jaci Russo:
I think it’s a lot of things. I think we upped our game, in terms of the targets, so we’re going after bigger companies. And I think they have a slower process. I will take that as a big part of it. I think that we changed how we do our proposals. And I don’t think that was a change in the right direction, so we are quickly backtracking. And I think that we became too reliant on some outgoing activity, instead of staying rooted—doing that and continuing to use our energy.
When I go speak at a conference, which I do all the time, we get a client. We wrote the book, we got clients. And we need to go back to those grassroots things where people get to know us and trust us. We skip that step. And that’s a mistake.
Jay Goltz:
Let me add on one more piece. The whole country is having an anxiety attack. And that’s not helping any—between the global warming and the politics and Ukraine. And you can go on to 10 more things. School shootings. I really believe the whole country is having anxiety. And the list of things you’re going to work on first, one is that, “Oh, let’s go hire somebody to help us with marketing and spend some money.” I just think that some piece of it is a little… I’m not saying that everything you said isn’t true, but I think there’s some piece of it in there that people are hesitant about.
Laura Zander:
I mean, we keep saying, “This decade sucks. This decade just sucks.” I mean, we keep waiting for the pressure to be relieved. And it just shows up in different ways. We probably, realistically, have somebody cry at work once every two weeks.
Loren Feldman:
Last time you were on, Laura, you talked about some of the challenges you were facing, in terms of a marketing team or sales team that wasn’t performing well, and they’d started to go at each other a little bit. Has that resolved itself? How are you dealing with that?
Laura Zander:
Better. It’s not resolved, but it’s definitely better. But it was ugly. It’s been just exhausting. I don’t know what other word to use, other than I mean, we’re all just exhausted from it: The emotional turmoil of all these people not getting along and not getting their work done and they’re not hitting sales goals.
Jay Goltz:
In your case, though, that’s partially due to you bought a new company out of state. I mean, that’s just not an easy thing to do. And it would be naive to think anyone’s going to do that and not have—I mean, this is par for the course. I mean, it is what it is. You bought a company out of state. There’s only one of you. You’re going out there, you’re trying to inject your quote-unquote culture into their culture.
Loren Feldman:
But is that right, Laura? Have you had these problems since you bought that business? Or is this something that has surfaced more recently?
Laura Zander:
Ummmm, there’s right and not right. I mean, part of it was, yes, intercompany culture. That said, the people who weren’t getting along, they are out of state, but they don’t happen to be in that factory. I mean, it’s more a remote worker versus here-in-the-office worker kind of problem. And yes, there are some definite cultural differences—even in the remote workers that we have in our Texas business who don’t live in Texas. So it’s more old school versus new school, I guess, or the old guard versus the new guard.
But then we’ve brought new people into our business here in Nevada who are remote, and there’s some conflict there. I mean, Jay, you may recognize this, and Jaci, you may, too. You have so many people who have been with you for quite a while. And so, you’ve promoted from within and promoted from within, and then every once in a while, you have to bring somebody in from the outside at a senior level, and they don’t always get along with everybody.
Jay Goltz:
Or you don’t bring someone in from another level, and they’re choking, and they’re over their head. If I made a history chart, I could show you. I would say we’ve had four meltdowns in the last 40—every 10 years, somebody who’s been there for years got over their head. I let it go too long, and then finally it broke. They left, and things got much better. I’ve had four of them.
Laura Zander:
That’s exactly it. Exactly.
Jay Goltz:
I’ve had four of those episodes.
Laura Zander:
Yep. People get in over their head. Life circumstances may change. And there are outside factors as well. And then at some point—I don’t know if it’s the right decision or the wrong decision—but you bring somebody in from the outside who has the experience and who can do what needs to be done. And then that’s just a disaster as well.
Jay Goltz:
The other problem is not having people in the office. When you work with people every day, and you’re having lunch, being face-to-face with someone is one thing. When you’re never face-to-face, and they’re over here, and you’re over there, it’s very easy to get upset and think, “I can’t believe…” And I’ve been through that a thousand times where you sit down, “Okay, it’s only Laura, blah, blah.” Taking that interpersonal piece out of it and having it all online and texting? It’s not normal!
Laura Zander:
It is normal now. But it’s different.
Jaci Russo:
We don’t think you can work that way, not in a collaborative environment. So we have always, since day one, had a flex schedule. We’ve always given people the opportunity of working remotely. I mean, I was eight months pregnant with our second kid when we started the company. And I went on to have a third and fourth, so trust me, I worked remotely. But we wanted people to have a reason to come back together. And so we create these opportunities, where, first of all, we make it easy. So it’s not mandated. You come, you go. Everybody has to communicate, so we know if you’re going to be there today. You’re going to be there.
We have professional development sessions together. We bring in someone—the aforementioned Melissa Bowen Authenticity Center—who does our coaching with us. So we all get to collaborate and work together. And on the off times when we’re not having a session with Melissa, we have lunch together. It’s important for us to spend time together. Jay, you’re 100-percent right.
I mean, this isn’t quite the level of the therapist in Billions, who coaches up the traders. We’re not there yet, by any means, but we do have, not therapy, but coaching available to every employee, one-on-one, that all I do is pay for. I don’t know who shows up. I don’t know what they talk about. Nothing to do with me. But I have happy people who want to be here.
Jay Goltz:
So we’re posing—and this is our theory—that trying to have a collaborative environment and have everyone remote, we believe, is very difficult. We don’t know, maybe somebody somewhere figured it out. I don’t know. All we know is we think that would be very, very difficult, if not impossible to do.
Laura Zander:
So I’m gonna disagree in some ways. So on my Texas team, the creative side of that team is 100-percent remote, and it is dialed. It works. I mean, these people are best friends. They laugh together. You hop in a meeting, they use Slack. But they were all hired that way. You know, they’re from all across the country. They’ve all got similar experiences. Maybe we did a really good job hiring, I don’t know. I mean, it’s luck, but it’s dialed. People get along. They communicate really well.
We’ve had a couple of people who we’ve hired into it, and they haven’t worked out because their communication skills just aren’t the right kind that lend themselves really well to this kind of work environment. Where we’re having trouble is this remote team, for the most part, is very direct, right? They’re direct. They’re a little snarky. They’ve got dark humor. They’ve all got the same sense of humor, so their personalities match. So they’re able to talk to each other, in a way. I mean, they would be friends.
Jay Goltz:
So the people who get along so well: Do any of them report to each other? Or are they all at a similar level?
Laura Zander:
No, they report to each other.
Jay Goltz:
Okay, that’s why I posed it as a hypothesis. I still think it’s difficult.
Laura Zander:
So that side of it has worked really well. The other side, here in Reno where we have a hybrid, and we have a couple of people who are in the office and then we have other people who are remote, that is not working as well. Because you’ve got a bunch of people who do see each other all the time, who do share the laughs, and then you’ve got people who aren’t there. And so their communication is just different. I mean, the people that are remote are outsiders. They’re not the ones who are in-house. And so that transition has been tough.
The hard part is, for us, most of the talent is remote. We’re in a very, very small industry, and we live in a very small city. I mean, not very small, but pretty small. So for us to find the best people, they’re from all across the country. They’re not here in Reno. So I really think that our future is a remote future.
Loren Feldman:
Jaci, you went to a four-day workweek this year. Correct?
Jaci Russo:
We did, on April 1st, which everybody thought was a joke, but it’s still happening. So joke’s on them. And we did it as a three-month trial, and we found lots of pros and lots of cons. And it took some workarounds and figuring it out. We don’t charge by the hour, and so we have always been project-based. And as long as the project is done on time, everybody’s happy. So it’s been about managing that. So the projects stay on track, and the people are still off on Fridays.
Jay Goltz:
Wait, wait, wait. There are two key questions. A) Is this four days of 10-hour days to give you 40 hours?
Jaci Russo:
No.
Jay Goltz:
It’s four eight-hour days. So everybody’s working 20 percent less?
Jaci Russo:
Correct.
Jay Goltz:
B) Is anybody covering the business on Friday?
Jaci Russo:
Well, we have a couple of part-time people who are still college students, and we didn’t want to cut their hours. And so we gave them the option of still working on Fridays if they wanted to. And so one of them opted for that.
Jay Goltz:
Trust me when I tell you this: Maybe it’ll work out beautifully. I just find it interesting—and I’m not making any judgments. You just said this is the first time you’ve ever had such a long period without new business. And, “Oh, we went to a four-day workweek.” Hmm, how interesting.
Laura Zander:
About six months ago.
Jay Goltz:
Yeah, everybody’s working 20 percent less. Hmm, interesting.
Jaci Russo:
Yeah, I hear you. And that question has been posited before. So I have given it lots of contemplation, went back and looked at the numbers. We have had the same number of discovery meetings. We have had the same number of proposals. We just have had less yesses.
Jay Goltz:
How is that possible that people work 20 percent less, and they’re getting the exact same output out?
Jaci Russo:
Well, it’s funny you would ask, Jay. When I thought I wanted to do this, I went to every employee, one on one, and had a chat, and said, “I’m considering this. Tell me what this would be like for you.” And the two people in this company who spend every day saying things like, “My list is too long. I can’t get it all done,” they were the last two people I talked to. And when I went to them, I said, “I am most concerned about you. Because I know how busy you are. I know how much you have on your plate. We’re done at five. Everybody should go home and eat dinner with their family, and I don’t want that to change.”
One of them brings their kid to daycare, and I didn’t want them to not be able to do that anymore by leaving the house early. “So, how can we do this? You tell me.” And both of them, the people who never had enough time, always late on deadlines, said, “We can do it.” I said, “Okay, let’s do a three-month trial.” The two of them were the first two people to say, “This is working.” They have not complained once.
And when we did our three-month recap, in one of our professional development sessions, Melissa was guiding this conversation, because I’m like, “I’m out. We’re gonna talk about it. We’re gonna make a group decision.” So she had everybody go around the room and talk about pros and cons and their personal experiences. The person who had the most frustration with workload and biggest concern, who has not had a problem with any of that since we went to a four-day week, was the first person to say, “This is important. This matters. I can’t go back. It has saved my marriage.” And I was like, “Well, that’s more important than anything else. So okay, we’ll find a way to keep making it work.”
Jay Goltz:
And as an outsider, a business person, I’ll be interested to ask you in a year. I think having people work 20 percent less and having them go, “Oh no, this is working out great.” Oh my God! What a surprise! People like working 20 percent less and making the same money. Oh my God. Really? That worked? People are happy with that? Wow. [Laughter] So, I don’t know. I don’t know.
Jaci Russo:
You know what I find? I find that they work faster. They work more efficiently. They ask more questions in the beginning.
Laura Zander:
So why couldn’t they have done that for 40 hours?
Jay Goltz:
There you go.
Jaci Russo:
They probably could. And I know we’re not going to be as profitable. I have no doubt about that.
Jay Goltz:
Okay, that’s a fair statement. And I respect that.
Jaci Russo:
No doubt. I’m willing to trade some profitability for some happiness.
Jay Goltz:
You know what, I fully respect and can appreciate that. The question is the word “some.” That’s the question.
Jaci Russo:
Well, and I don’t know how much yet. I’ll give you the whole year. After a year, we’ll really have a good look at the numbers.
Jay Goltz:
Yeah. Fair enough.
Laura Zander:
Math-wise, is the conversation like, “Look, our raises aren’t going to be as big year to year”? You know, there’s a tradeoff. I mean, there’s a financial tradeoff for everybody.
Jaci Russo:
There might be.
Laura Zander:
Is that part of the conversation?
Jaci Russo:
It hasn’t been yet. We did a really healthy round almost, 50 percent, in ‘22. And so everybody’s sitting pretty happy right now. Also, just about everybody’s tied into profitability. So they want us to be profitable.
Loren Feldman:
Tied in how?
Jaci Russo:
Percentage of certain projects, and then also overall retainer.
Loren Feldman:
And you said you expected this. You did this expecting profitability to decline?
Jaci Russo:
Well, maybe not decline, as much as not grow as rapidly. Our mantra from day one has been “happy, humble, and hungry.” That’s who we are. That’s what we look for. And so “happy” has to be valued to me over dollars.
Loren Feldman:
And did you think profitability would not grow as fast, or not do as well, because revenue would not grow as fast, or because you wouldn’t be operating as well as you had before?
Jaci Russo:
When the drought is over, and the people who are just hanging out there getting contracts approved and reviewed and through legal, and all the things that it takes months and months to do, I will not be able to onboard as many of them as often as possible, because I can’t take away from the time dedicated to the current clients that we have. We have some new employees who I want to onboard, as well. I feel like I can keep it balanced.
But when it comes down to it, in my opinion, I’m okay thinking it’s gonna take us that much longer to get to $10 million a year. Or maybe we tap out at $8 million, whatever that might be. But if I am able to keep happy people happy, and our clients? Every single client has told me that they are getting their work as quickly or quicker, that it is as right or better, that they find that the first draft is closer to right then the second draft used to be, and they don’t notice that we aren’t working on Fridays.
Jay Goltz:
Okay, I’ll just challenge one thing. You said “happy over dollars.” Okay, let’s not be in fantasyland here. There needs to be a mix there.
Jaci Russo:
Absolutely!
Jay Goltz:
Yeah, cause, “Oh, we don’t make any money, but everyone’s happy!” That’s going to run out. Sorry. So let’s just—
Jaci Russo:
Well, that wouldn’t make me happy. And I have to be happy, too.
Jay Goltz:
Let’s just throw the word balance in there. Yes, it certainly it shouldn’t all be about money. It’s a balancing act.
Jaci Russo:
But that goes back to the Women’s Summit at Sea thing we just did. That was balanced. That was about, if we’re gonna have work life balance, five-two is not balanced. Four-three is balanced. Now, if I ran a gas station and I needed a cashier at the front desk, that can’t be done remotely.
Jay Goltz:
No, that’s my business. No, I can’t shut down on Fridays. That’s just not an option.
Jaci Russo:
I have privilege, in that the kind of work we do for the kind of companies we do it for, we have the ability to do this. And not every company can do it. And not every position can do it. So I know that I sit in the seat of privilege. I get it. But I’m going to take advantage of that privilege. And if that privilege means I get to have Fridays off, I’m taking it. And my kids are all in college—one has graduated, but three still in college. I look to the co-workers, some of whom now have birth years that start with a two, which freaks me out. And they’re starting to build their families, and I think, “Man, look at the stuff they’re going to be able to do with their kids on Friday.”
Loren Feldman:
Are you taking Fridays off, Jaci?
Jaci Russo:
Oh, yeah. Now, Friday off to me probably looks a little different than Fridays off to other people. To me, Fridays off sometimes means I am off. I’m traveling. I’m away from my desk, my computer, my everything, and I am off. Sometimes, like tomorrow, it means that I’m a guest on another podcast—not as good as yours, Loren.
Loren Feldman:
There’s another podcast?
Jaci Russo:
No, no, no, no.
Jay Goltz:
We know there’s no other Loren.
Jaci Russo:
And I will be doing a little bit of work to get ahead, because I’m gonna be out for two weeks, and so it’s balanced. But you know what? An influx of emails from my team. I don’t have my phone ringing off the hook. So I have quiet thinking time and writing time. And I am so productive now on those four days.
Loren Feldman:
Have you had any client emergencies on Fridays?
Jaci Russo:
We’ve had two, and both have been handled. We don’t die on Fridays. We just aren’t working. There aren’t a lot of advertising emergencies. Let’s be clear.
Jay Goltz:
Listen, I accept everything you’re saying. I can’t do that, because I have to take care of customers. But hey, I hope it works out. I will be interested to see, in a year from now, if you’re still in the same place. I wouldn’t bet against it. That’s interesting.
Loren Feldman:
Jaci, how concerned are you about the eight-month drought? Are you making contingency plans? Are you changing the way you market your marketing?
Jaci Russo:
We are walking the fine line between doing the same thing and expecting a different result is crazy, coupled with, you have to keep going and eventually you’ll get it right. And you know, even a Hall of Fame hitter strikes out 70 percent of the time. So I’m somewhere in the middle of those two things.
We are making tweaks and changes. We like to test drive marketing ideas on ourselves. And when they work, then we bring them to our clients. So we’re doing two or three new things that are already starting to have a positive impact. And I feel like the next time I’m on this show with y’all—assuming I get invited back, please—then I think I’m gonna have a yes or two to talk about, which will make the eight-month drought over, and I’ll feel a lot better.
Loren Feldman:
All right, I want to talk about something else. I recently highlighted a story in the Morning Report about a couple of—the story referred to them as tech bros, who decided they wanted to take over the knitting industry. And they bought the domain name knitting.com and decided they were going to teach the grandmas running knitting companies how to really run a business. Laura, you’ve mentioned these guys to us previously, but it sounds like we have kind of a conclusion to the story now. Did you see the story I’m talking about?
Laura Zander:
I did. Yeah.
Loren Feldman:
Did you enjoy the story I’m talking about?
Laura Zander:
It’s hilarious. Yeah, super funny. And it’s just so classic. You know, the irony of this is that this company has been so off of my radar that I had totally forgotten about it.
Jay Goltz:
I’ve got the same thing in the framing industry. There are some tech people who got in. They’re going to show all the greedy framers that are overcharging everyone—which is disgusting in itself, because framers are not overcharging people—but they’re going to straighten out this industry. And yeah, it hasn’t worked. They just keep hemorrhaging tens of millions of dollars. So yeah, you actually have to know the industry. You actually have to know something about business.
Laura Zander:
This isn’t a commodities-based industry. This is a community-based industry. And for the most part, yeah, sure, there’s some low-hanging fruit. And there’s some money to be made, especially for people who are new. And as Joann just laid off a ton of people, I mean, that opens up some stuff.
Jay Goltz:
Wait, Joann Fabrics?
Laura Zander:
Yeah.
Jay Goltz:
You know, that’s funny. They’re in the frame business, too.
Laura Zander:
So, sure, is there some money to be made? But there’s a reason that a lot of the businesses in our industry have been around for 100 years, because loyalty and being family-owned and all those things—they matter.
Loren Feldman:
The businesses you’re talking about Laura, are they knitting shops, yarn shops, around the country?
Laura Zander:
Shops or manufacturers.
Jay Goltz:
Just people who actually know what they’re doing. I mean, it’s that simple. It’s unbelievable. These people go to Harvard or Yale or Princeton or whatever. They get some venture capital, and they think they’ve got it all figured out. And they never spend the time to actually figure out what the business is about and how it works. And they go jump in with somebody else’s money, and they burn through tens of millions of dollars. And then, what a surprise! They go away one day.
Laura Zander:
Yep. And they focus on competing on price, not building a community.
Jay Goltz:
Listen, 20 years ago, you didn’t hear the phrase “burn rate.” You didn’t hear the phrase “scaling.” You didn’t hear the phrase “customer acquisition cost.” Here, you want to get your MBA in business, techie guys and women? Here’s a word you’ve never heard of: “margins.” That’s the problem. They don’t have any margins. And they think they’re going to make up for it with all this other stuff.
Laura Zander:
“We’re losing money on every transaction, but we’ve got millions of them!”
Jay Goltz:
“We make it up in volume.” That’s the old joke.
Jaci Russo:
I agree. And I believe that people are responsible for their own choices. But are we going to put any blame on the publications that run these fastest growing—
Jay Goltz:
Absolutely.
Laura Zander:
Oh, totally.
Jay Goltz:
I’m not saying there aren’t some of them that figured something out. Clearly, there are some of them, but just I’ve seen so many—
Laura Zander:
No, but we’ve got the other big one that raised $70 million. They just laid some people off the other day. Word on the street is they’re having trouble paying their bills. And so, here we go.
Loren Feldman:
Laura, I’m curious. These guys, at least according to this story, they sound like total jerks. They came in, they were insulting to the people they wanted to do business with. Everybody else was unsophisticated. They had some money. I don’t know if it was private equity or venture capital, but they had investor dollars to spend.
Suppose they hadn’t been jerks. Suppose they had come in and gone after business in a way that some of the old-line, 100-year-old companies hadn’t gotten up to speed on. Could they have done better?
Laura Zander:
Sure. Yeah, of course. I mean, there are new businesses in our industry popping up all the time. And if they can find an audience, that’s great. If they have something new to contribute, that’s even better, because it makes our entire industry better. But when somebody’s coming in with the explicit goal of not being a member of the community… I mean, there’s just this weird kind of karma stuff going on.
Jay Goltz:
You know what, you’re being kind. It’s not about being a member, they’re assholes. There’s a difference between not being a member and being an asshole. And I’ve seen them do it in the frame business. They’re assholes to people.
Laura Zander:
Yeah, but there are members of our community that are also assholes, but they still contribute to the community. I mean, you’re suggesting that everybody who’s a member of our community is a nice person, and that’s not true.
Jay Goltz:
No, I’m suggesting going into a new industry and being an asshole is not gonna… It’s a small industry.
Loren Feldman:
It’s not a good strategy.
Jay Goltz:
No, it’s not.
Laura Zander:
Not in this world. Maybe if it were tires or guns.
Jay Goltz:
Oh, for sure. No, in big business, maybe you can get away with that. There was someone who came into the framing industry. They made him president, got big money behind him. And I said, You know, I tried to be nice. I said, “There are three things that you need to know. One is we’re a design-driven industry. Two is, you have to have inventory, because people sell the stuff. They need you to have it. And three is, it’s a relationship small business.” They managed to screw up all three of those things, and their business is probably 25 percent of the size it was when they got into it.
Laura Zander:
I mean, most of the vendors in this business—it’s changing, but a lot of the vendors and the suppliers are small, family-owned businesses. So they’re missing the loyalty piece. This whole little world is based on relationships. It’s based on loyalty. It’s based on community. So if you come in, and you’re insulting people, then sure, we’ll take your money, if we’re a supplier. I mean, sure, we’ll let you participate, but there’s no loyalty.
We’re gonna stand behind a family-owned business that’s not been a jerk and that’s been here for 20 years, because we know that they’re going to stick around. We’ve watched this before. People come in. They’re not in it because they love the craft. They’re not in it because they love the art. They’re not in it because they’re creative. They’re mining. They’re coming in, and they’re trying to build a strip mine.
Loren Feldman:
Laura, you said that you’d forgotten that these guys even existed, which is an indication of something. The story that I highlighted indicated that they’ve shifted their strategy, based on the reaction they got. They’ve given up on trying to sell to people who have been knitting for some period of time. They’ve given up on the existing market, and now they’re just going after people who are just getting into knitting and trying to start fresh with them. Does that strike you as a workable strategy?
Laura Zander:
Uhhh, I think one, it’s a couple years too late. I mean, that would have been great, like in 2020, when there were all these new people. But no, I mean, unless they’re gonna go after the Joann customer, I guess. They’re just irrelevant.
Jay Goltz:
There’s another piece to this. When you say strategy, you can only have strategies like that when it ain’t your money, when you can have a quote-unquote burn rate of your venture capital or of your public money or from some rich person. People like Laura and I don’t have the luxury of changing failing strategy after failing strategy. Because at some point, we lose our house and we’re living in a cardboard box down by the river. These guys, they keep giving them money, and they keep changing their strategies until one day, “Oh, so and so’s gone.” That’s a pretty new phenomenon over the last 20 years. Usually, people who succeeded figured it out and built on it. Now they just keep doing stuff, thinking they got it figured it out, and keep hemorrhaging money.
Laura Zander:
And I think this goes back to even us having this specific podcast, which is geared toward evergreen, small-to-medium-sized businesses, often where the founder or the owner is operationally involved, versus building something to sell. That’s what these guys are all doing. They don’t have the emotional or lifestyle interest in having something either for the rest of their lives or to pass down or whatever. They’re playing poker.
Jaci Russo:
I want to circle back to something because I have had a revelation. Wherever this goes next, I have been, I mean, almost to the line on buying another agency. And they fit nicely with us: a retainer base, B2B, kind of fits our vibe, but in another state. And after this discussion, I’m like, “Yeah, I’m not doing that.”
Loren Feldman:
Wow. Well, you know, Laura’s done that.
Jaci Russo:
I know, and I hear her talking about how challenging it is.
Laura Zander:
Look, I’m really only 32, but I look like I’m 60. I look like Jay’s age. [Laughter]
Loren Feldman:
Laura, you’re not sorry you bought the business, though? Are you?
Laura Zander:
I am not sorry. Not at all. Because our Reno business is in the red right now, but our Texas business is doing really well. And so it’s paying the bills, and it just goes back and forth, and back and forth. They’re very different businesses. They’re complementary, but it’s not the same. One’s manufacturing and one’s retail. So when one goes down, the other one can be up. I don’t regret it, but I’m tired.
Jay Goltz:
Jaci, you just said something that’s consistent with what you said previously. You said: Happy can be more important than more money. So I can assure you, if you buy an agency out of state, it’s not going to be happy fun. There are going to be lots of challenges. And it begs the question: I have a different word than balance. Balance was important when you have little kids. Now, I talk about alignment. Does that align with what you want? At my age, I need more money less than I need more aggravation. Right now, I’ve got it under control. I really don’t need more money. Whereas when I was younger, it was different.
Loren Feldman:
All right, my thanks to Jay Goltz, Jaci Russo, and Laura Zander—and to our sponsor, the Great Game of Business, which helps businesses use an open-book management system to build healthier companies. You can learn more at greatgame.com. Thanks, everybody.
