What’s Going to Happen to My Business?

Introduction:

This week, Jay Goltz tells us that, on second thought, he did learn something important watching HBO’s Succession. He still wants to work as long as he can—even if that means dying at his desk—but he now realizes, thanks in part to Logan Roy, that he needs to put a plan in place in case he were to get hit by that proverbial bus. This realization was also furthered by hearing the story of a 51-year-old entrepreneur who died in his sleep recently, leaving his wife to figure out how to keep their bank from calling its loans. As part of his hit-by-a-bus plan, Jay says he’s crossing streets very carefully, but also considering creating a board of advisors that will be able to offer advice to his survivors. But that’s a little tricky because, as you may have noticed, Jay’s not exactly a board-of-advisors kind of guy.

— Loren Feldman

Guests:

Jay Goltz is CEO of The Goltz Group.

Producer:

Jess Thoubboron is founder of Blank Word.

Full Episode Transcript:

Loren Feldman:
Welcome, Jay. It’s great to have you here. It’s just you and me today.

Jay Goltz:
What a rare treat.

Loren Feldman:
For me. I wanted to take this opportunity to get an update on where your thinking about succession stands. It’s kind of funny because I brought it up half-joking recently when I asked you to talk about your reaction to watching the HBO series Succession, but I’ve realized in our conversations since then that your thinking has continued to evolve, and that you’re still figuring things out. So I thought maybe we could review some of the things that have influenced your thinking and get a read on where you stand now.

So to start, when I asked you about watching Succession, I asked you if you had learned anything from watching it, and you responded, “Absolutely not.” But I gather from our talk since then, that you’ve thought further about that.

Jay Goltz:
Yeah, it would be like, if you enjoyed downhill skiing, and you watched a TV series watching people get killed skiing every day. I don’t know how it couldn’t affect your thinking. So it has affected it, in that I realized, “Wow, if I got run over by the bus, would everything fall in place?” No, it’d be a mess. And one thing that I’ve realized is there are really two completely—I don’t know if they’re completely separate—but they’re separate issues. One is, long-term, what are you going to do with the business?

And the second piece is, what if there is no long-term and you just get run over by the bus? That’s a whole other subject, which I hadn’t thought enough about. I can’t tell you that I’ve got everything in place well enough that everyone. I just got a book: Harvard Business Review Family Business Handbook: How to Build and Sustain a Successful Enduring Enterprise. I haven’t read it yet, but I recognize I need to do more to attempt to get things in place. Attempt is the key word.

Loren Feldman:
This topic came up a couple years ago in a conversation we did on this podcast with William and Paul. And as I recall, neither you nor Paul really had a plan if you got hit by that bus. But William did. He described a very thorough approach to a kind of a break-in-an-emergency box that he has that lays out everything anyone would need to know and establishes a process—what should happen. You obviously didn’t do anything after that conversation. What changed?

Jay Goltz:
Well, I do have a thing typed out, just some thoughts about it. But I didn’t actually put anything in place, like, “Here’s the board.” I could do more. That’s for sure. So I haven’t done anything with that.

And two is, when we had that conversation, I was 65. Now I’m 67. And it makes a difference. And I have to tell you, on top of this, on top of watching Succession, and on top of my son, who gave me this book—”Dad, we really need to do this.” Okay, I’m not arguing with that.

The third thing is, I’ve got a longtime supplier who I’ve been buddies with since I was 22 years old, and he took over his family business. And he’s 72. And much to my surprise, he just sold it. And now he’s going to work for the guy and his kid’s also working there. He’s going to work for the person. And it just shook me up a little bit. Just like, “Wow.” It just surprised me.

Loren Feldman:
Let me stop you there for a second. Do you know that that was not a good outcome?

Jay Goltz:
No, not at all. I just recognize, he took over the family business and worked hard and did a good job and made a really good living for years. And I’m an entrepreneur. I went from zero. My business is more than twice the size of his. And he was, I think, working more in it than on it, as they always say. And maybe this was the perfect solution for him.

Between that and another guy who also took over the family business, he told me he’s got two kids in it. They’re in their 40s. And he has announced to them, “I need to look out for myself.” The building is now worth more than the business, and he might just sell the building and be done with it.

So the point is, I’m having a hard time finding one business that went from first-generation to second-generation, that they pulled it off. And It just has made me think that you’ve kind of got to work at this. And both of those stories, as you get older and your friends start to retire and stuff, in this case, how can you not say, “Wow, what’s gonna happen to my business?” So it’s making me think more.

Loren Feldman:
Let me ask you what you mean by that—finding one business that has pulled it off. Because I know you’ve talked a lot about being in peer groups where one of your concerns was that you were with a lot of second-generation owners. So obviously, it does happen. Are you saying that, just in your circle, you’ve seen some examples that didn’t go that way?

Jay Goltz:
Actually, that’s a fair question. I haven’t been in business groups for a while now. These are people who I was personally doing business with. So that’s different. But B), I look at some of those second-generation—not pretty. Lots of them were going broke while I was in the business group with them. Lots of them were miserable. Lots of them were fighting with their father, or fighting with their brother. So it wasn’t always pretty. Were there any examples? Sure, now that you mention it. Yes, I can think of a couple of them. But not many. I don’t know if the statistics are right, but they say only 20 percent of businesses get to the second generation.

It’s a matter of: What are your objectives? Maybe getting it to the next generation isn’t an important objective. Maybe you made enough money and it’s time to just hang it up. I mean, that is, in many cases, the way it goes. It seems to me—and I’m only speaking for myself, that’s for sure—number one: money. How important is it?

Okay, the money in my case is not going to make a difference for my family’s lifestyle. I own the real estate along the way, and the real estate is actually more valuable in total than the business. So this isn’t about, “Oh my God, I’ve gotta squeeze every dollar out of this business, or we’re not going to retire, and my wife’s not going to whatever.” So the money’s one.

Two is: family. In some cases, it’s just, how do you integrate your family into the business and have them take it over? Or maybe they want nothing to do with it. So it’s really figuring out, in my case, I just want my kids and my wife to be happy. If they don’t want to be involved, it’s fine.

Three: your employees. I certainly want to do everything I can to keep them gainfully employed and look out for them. I’ll do what I can. I don’t know that I can pull that off. But I certainly am going to try.

And lastly: My customers have been a loyal customer base for 45 years. I most certainly would like to be able to continue to take care of what they’re buying. And that would be a shame, but again, there’s only so much control I have over that.

So, in my mind, those are four completely different objectives. And some people’s would be completely in a different order. And some people are hung up on legacy, or whatever. And some people absolutely need to get every dollar out of the business. So it depends where your head’s at. So those are the objectives.

Loren Feldman:
Let me ask you about the employee one a little bit there, because that’s been part of our conversation. You got real interested in possibly doing an ESOP at one point, as you learned about how that works, and the opportunity to not have to pay taxes. The more you learned, the more unsure you were, and ultimately, you decided it wasn’t right for you.

Jay Goltz:
Just to be clear, I’m not unsure at all anymore. I know, for me, it makes no sense. That was my conclusion after thinking about it for six months and looking into it. For sure, it doesn’t make sense for me. I’m sure it makes sense for other people.

Loren Feldman:
And when you came to that conclusion, you thought about other ways that you might be able to do well by your employees. And part of what kicked this off was your concern that not enough of them are saving for their own retirements. You thought about doing something that you were calling for a while a “401(J)”—the idea being, well, maybe you can explain it.

Jay Goltz:
No, it’s very simple. I realized you could just go ahead and give them a certain percentage of their salary into their 401(k) plan. You’ve checked the box for saving taxes, and you checked the box for them retiring, and that’s a good plan—if in fact the business continues on. And I think that is something that is a viable thing for many companies.

Loren Feldman:
Is that still something you’re considering?

Jay Goltz:
Sure. But that’s assuming the business is going on, and I’m healthy, and I go to work. I’m not in a profession like a dentist or a lawyer or something. There are some people who need to retire at some point, because it’s either mentally or too physically demanding.

When you own a business, and you’re not actually doing the work every day, I think you could work pretty much until whenever you want to or can. I might be coming to work when I’m 82. Frankly, I hope I’m going to work when I’m 82. So I have no desire whatsoever to retire and go to Florida and go sit on a boat or do whatever it is they do. None, zero.

Loren Feldman:
We know your view of golf.

Jay Goltz:
No. So I’m perfectly happy. I talked to a guy who did an ESOP for big money, real big money. Someone gave me his name. And he was very open about it. And he goes, “Oh, I’ve got two houses down here and two boats.” He goes, “You don’t want to die at your desk.” And I go, “Yeah, I’m not sure that’s true. I don’t know that dying at your desk is the worst thing.” So we laughed. And at the end of it, he said, “Yeah, you shouldn’t do an ESOP.”

So in my particular case, I want to go to work, at the moment, as long as I can. So that’s probably an unusual piece of the puzzle. I don’t think I’m the only one though. I know numerous people who feel the same way. So that’s part of the whole thing. So, yeah, the 401(k) thing certainly could solve taking care of employees. But as far as the long-term employment, yeah, it’d be best if you could figure out how to keep the company going. For sure.

Loren Feldman:
There’s some irony in the fact that you actually worked with Bo Burlingham, when he wrote his book on the topic of succession. You came up with the title, Finish Big.

Jay Goltz:
Remember, let’s give me credit. The reason he came to me is, I gave him Small Giants. So I’m his title guy. I’m very proud of that. I did read the book. It was a great book. That was a while ago.

Loren Feldman:
I think it didn’t address the situation you just described, which is, I think the book is more about helping business owners find the exits. It’s less for someone who is open to the idea of dying at their desk.

Jay Goltz:
Or bringing the family in. I mean, that’s the point. It’s about exiting, but not necessarily selling it. Incredibly coincidentally, my banker calls me, who I’m tight with. And she tells me she’s got a 51-year-old customer who she was moving from the old bank to the new bank, and he died in his sleep. And the widow is calling her, obviously extremely upset about not only her husband dying, but she had to tell the widow, “I have to tell you something that I don’t want you to overreact or worry about, but you are now in technical default with the bank.”

Loren Feldman:
Which means they can call the loan.

Jay Goltz:
They can call the loan. And the woman’s very upset, and unfortunately, she hadn’t yet transferred it over to her bank. It’s still at the old bank. And the woman had been calling for two days to the old bank that was bought by the conglomerate, the big bank. She left messages.

Now, keep in mind, her husband died on Sunday. Monday, she’s calling the bank with urgent messages. No one’s called her back. That’s the reality of what goes on in the world. And I certainly don’t want to put my wife in that situation. Nobody should want to leave their husband or wife or kids in that situation. So I do think it’s really prudent to go through and have some kind of plan in place. Because if not, I believe that you could be making it 10 times worse for whoever’s left behind.

Loren Feldman:
Have you put enough thought into this to know what the most important elements of a hit-by-the-bus plan would be?

Jay Goltz:
No, but I believe it probably is going to include having some board you put together where you know the people well, you’ve got relationships with them, and you’ve had meetings with them. You’ve had conversations so they are best equipped to assist in what to do with the business. Versus—this is my nightmare—and part of it was in Succession: “What would dad want?” The worst thing: “Oh, Dad’s turning in his grave. Oh, this is pissing on dad’s legacy.” I don’t want any of that stuff. I want them to be well-equipped, to be as well-educated as possible, and to do what’s best for them.

And I did put that in my letter, “Do whatever you feel is necessary.” The last thing I want to do is hang this on my wife or kids—like, you have to figure out how to keep this going. I want to do as much as I can to try to make a smooth transition, which is 180 degrees from what happened in Succession. Could it have been a bigger shitshow? I don’t think so. I mean, the siblings going after each other… Everybody thinks they should be left in charge.

Loren Feldman:
You mentioned the idea of having a board that can provide some guidance and help to go through this transition. And you mentioned that it would be essential for them to be familiar with the business and to know what’s been going on. You’ve been running your company for quite a few years now. You could have created a board at any point for other reasons to help you manage the company, to have inside and outside directors. And that doesn’t sound like a Jay Goltz kind of thing.

Jay Goltz:
No, it isn’t. You know what people say, “Oh, I joined the business group because they hold me accountable.” Like, that makes me want to vomit. Really? You need someone to hold you accountable? What is that? This is just me. Again, I don’t want to preach to anybody. In my mind, if you own your own business, take responsibility for yourself, and do what you need to do. I certainly don’t need a business buddy to go, “Hey, Jay”—

Loren Feldman:
Well, that’s not the only reason to have a board. It’s not just to have somebody hold you accountable. It’s also to get diverse opinions about decisions.

Jay Goltz:
I guess. I’m just thinking out loud here. Could I find some people and put them around the table? I certainly talk to people and get input from people.

Loren Feldman:
I’m not trying to talk you into it.

Jay Goltz:
That’s just not on my list of things to do. Like, “Gee, I wish I had more”—

Loren Feldman:
Actually, it is.

Jay Goltz:
Well, now it is. Simply if I’m not here.

Loren Feldman:
But you can’t have a board that ignites the moment you go. Is that what you’re saying? Or are you going to have them prepared and involved in the business before you get hit by the bus?

Jay Goltz:
Excellent question. That’s an excellent question. I’m on that journey.

Loren Feldman:
I think you have to have them in place.

Jay Goltz:
Yeah, I can do that. And I will do that. No, no, that makes sense. You know, you get to 67. It’s like, who knows what’s happening? And I just want to do whatever I can to avoid any potential nightmares. You know, you hear those radio ads all the time: “Oh, nobody wants to talk about life insurance.” I do. I don’t have a problem talking about it. Like, let’s be grownups and deal with reality and not leave our—the woman I just talked about whose husband died. What a horrible story that is. And so I’m going to do what I can, but you’re right, I should put it together.

Loren Feldman:
Before you get hit by the bus.

Jay Goltz:
Yes, yes. And I’m very careful when I cross the street, I want to mention, because I don’t want to get hit by the bus.

Loren Feldman:
Let’s take a step back for a second. There are lots of people leaving businesses right now. Many of them want to sell them and are finding out that they just can’t do it, in part because they didn’t prepare to do it. They didn’t do the things they would have needed to do to get the business in shape to be sellable.

Jay Goltz:
Let me tell you one that’s just interesting. My son does real estate development, and he has bought several legendary businesses, mostly restaurants, that ended up getting bulldozed. Why? What happened was, they stopped paying rent to themselves because the building was paid for. And frankly, their prices were too cheap. I went to dinner at one of these legendary places. Everything on the menu was at least 10 percent under what you would have thought it would have been.

All they would have needed to do is treat the building as a business and treat the business as a business. And instead, they were subsidizing the business with the building that they weren’t paying a mortgage on, and it made the business unsaleable. What a shame! All they would have had to do was raise prices. They would have made money, and someone could have bought the existing business. So that happens all the time.

Loren Feldman:
So the question is, we’ve got this whole infrastructure of consultants and specialists out there waiting to help businesses. And yet we have all these businesses that are struggling to figure out a way to exit. You’ve been on this journey. Can you explain that?

Jay Goltz:
Absolutely. As we all know, I’m a business junkie. I love figuring stuff out and trying to figure out how to do things right. And I can tell you, I spent all morning looking for the family business advisor that would be the right one. I talked to some people I know. They gave me a list of people I should talk to. And on the list, I went to about four websites. Three of them don’t have phone numbers. You should just email them. And like, I don’t call that really customer-driven.

Loren Feldman:
Did you enter an email?

Jay Goltz:
No, I just want to deal with customer-driven people. I find it insulting. I really do. And then I found one, a major university that is a well-known family business thing. I called them. I left a message on Tuesday, and I never got a call back. And then there’s another university that has—

Loren Feldman:
Wait. It’s Thursday. So that’s two days.

Jay Goltz:
Okay. Really? It should take them a week to call a prospective customer? I mean, really? Maybe they’ll call me tomorrow. Maybe they’re calling right now. I don’t know. All I know is, it’s not like they’ve done a good job of marketing and going out there and getting to people like me and saying, “Hey, listen, we’ve got some services.” They don’t do a great outbound marketing thing. They’re not making it easy to find them. And my guess is they get their business when it’s already in distress.

I can just tell you from being a consumer and owning a business, I don’t see ads for these things. I get emails for all kinds of stupid stuff. I can’t remember the last time I got an email from someone saying, “Hey, we’re with the Blankety-Blank Family Business Center. We’d love to invite you to”—I haven’t seen it. So just like the ESOP experience I went through, I don’t think these companies are great at reaching out and finding entrepreneurs. I’m not exaggerating when I tell you this: I get three emails or phone calls a week for that ERC credit. It never ends.

Loren Feldman:
The employee retention tax credit?

Jay Goltz:
Yeah. I’m telling you, I’m not exaggerating. I was at the cleaners yesterday. The guy was helping me. The owner picks up the phone. I can hear he’s talking to someone calling him. There’s a whole army of these companies—

Loren Feldman:
There’s a lot of money to be made on that tax credit.

Jay Goltz:
Oh, I know. But I can’t think of one outreach that I’ve seen for a family business company that helps you with these transitions. I don’t think they’re marketing right. And as a result, I think a lot of these businesses could have been saved, salvaged, whatever.

Loren Feldman:
Do you think it’s mostly a marketing problem or an expertise problem? Do people just not know what the answer is?

Jay Goltz:
Oh, I think it’s both. I have a friend. He’s an electrician. He’s gonna retire one of these days. I go, “Well, clearly, you’re busy.” “No, it’s not worth anything!” I go, “You’ve got a phone number. You’ve got a 40-year history.” He’s convinced that his business is worthless. And I’ve talked to him more than once. I gave up on it. I’m confident that somebody would pay him something for his business. So I think people just don’t understand how to sell their business and don’t put a lot of energy into it. And they just go out of business. That happens all the time.

Loren Feldman:
Do you know with your friend what the key issue is? What could he have done that he didn’t do to prepare for this day?

Jay Goltz:
He apparently has enough money that he doesn’t need to sell it, which is, I believe the case.

Loren Feldman:
That’s a good thing.

Jay Goltz:
Yeah, I think. I don’t know. I just think that he… I don’t know.

Loren Feldman:
He just never focused on it, maybe.

Jay Goltz:
You’d think it would make sense to him when I go, “Wait a second. You have a phone number.” This is the same conversation. I’ll tell you, it’s the end of the same movie. All of the people that I’m talking about like that, they don’t have great-looking websites. They don’t have any marketing to speak of. They built a business by word of mouth. They’ve made a really good living for years. They’re good at what they do. But they don’t turn all the dials.

And in my case, turning all the dials means, when you’re done, figure out how to sell your business for something and keep your employees working. And I just don’t think people are thinking about it.

Or, how about this one: They just dropped dead. Game over. They didn’t have a choice to do it. And then what? The kids are supposed to figure it out? The husband, the wife’s supposed to figure it out? It’s a shame. It’s absolutely a shame.

But think about it. You’ve gotta think there’s a competitor out there that can make good use out of your mailing list, out of your phone number. And I’ve seen it with frame shops. They just close. I mean, they’re worth something, even if you can’t sell it. Clearly, the phone number, the mailing list, a letter from the ex-owner saying, “Hey, here’s who I recommend.” That’s got to be worth something—even if it’s $20,000. Why wouldn’t you? They don’t do it. I mean, that’s just the way it is.

Loren Feldman:
You’ve talked to us a lot about starting your business at a time when that infrastructure we’ve been talking about didn’t exist. You didn’t have a mentor. There weren’t lots of programs that you could turn to for help, for advice. And here we are 40 years later, it sounds like you’re still on the same journey figuring it out for yourself.

Jay Goltz:
Do I think it’s better now? Marginally. Do I think the universities are doing a great job of preparing people to start their own business, from what I’ve seen?

Loren Feldman:
Or to sell their own business?

Jay Goltz:
Um, no. Absolutely not. I’ve talked to enough students. I’ve spoken at these classes. I’ve seen what their outlines are. And it gets down to—this, in my mind, is why small business is difficult—if you went into accounting, you’d get a degree. You’d work in an accounting firm. You’d be mentored. You’d figure out how to do it. Law, same thing. Medicine, same thing. Advertising, same thing. Car mechanic, same thing.

You go into business for yourself? Certainly, it’s worth having an accounting class, no question about it. But the marketing, the management piece? From what I can see, they’re still not—who’s teaching these classes? Academics. Teachers who have never been out there running businesses. At medical schools, the person teaching you is a doctor, the doctor who’s looked into people’s eyes and said, “Listen, I’m sorry to tell you but you’ve got”—they’ve been doctors. They can relate.

Loren Feldman:
There are people who’ve built and run businesses who do some form of teaching.

Jay Goltz:
Not a lot.

Loren Feldman:
Maybe not. And maybe not enough.

Jay Goltz:
But so you’ve got that piece that it’s not as teachable as these other professions. And then secondly, you’re on your own. I mean, that’s why we do 21 Hats. I don’t know. Where are they supposed to be mentored from? You’re in business for yourself. And unfortunately, I had to learn the same lessons that the person had to learn in 1843. I mean, it’s not like there was a book out there that you could read, “Oh, here’s how you run it.”

So now we get to the end of the road, to selling your business. It shouldn’t be a surprise to any of us that people aren’t prepared to sell their business. And like I said, I read things, I listen to things. I haven’t heard any of them reaching out to business owners, reaching out to get people educated on what all the possibilities are and all the things to think about.

Because what I figured out in just the last few days: This is more complicated than it appears. It just is. You’ve got the family piece, the employee piece, the money piece, the customer piece, the legal piece. There are just a lot of things here. And I am confident if somebody had some good counsel, they could do much better than what’s happening now, which, in most cases, I think that’s a fair statement. In most cases, the business just closes one day.

Loren Feldman:
So back to your situation, as we’ve discussed many times since we first started talking about these kinds of issues, you have two kids that work in the business. You, at various points, haven’t been entirely sure whether they want to take over the business ultimately or not. Where does that stand today?

Jay Goltz:
Two of them work here. One’s in charge of the IT stuff. And the other one is taking care of real estate and dealing with some financial stuff and is taking care of some projects that we need to be working on. They both are here. They both seem to want to be here. Will they want to be here in 10 years? Will they want to be here in 10 weeks? I don’t know. And I keep telling them, “If you don’t want to be here, it’s okay.” I don’t want to hang it on them.

Loren Feldman:
But it sounds like you may need to prepare for the possibility that they don’t want to take over the business.

Jay Goltz:
Yeah, absolutely. I don’t want to hang that on them. It’s not like either of them has said, “No, I’m 100 percent sure that I want to be running this company in 20 years.” I don’t want to force them into doing that. And the other issue is, if I stay healthy, could I be going to work at 82? Yeah, I could. I know people who go to work at 82.

The point is, I’ve gotta have some contingency plans. And I want to put something in place that is flexible. And my number one priority—there’s no question—I’m not going to call this a balancing act. My number one priority is that my family is happy, and no one feels cornered with anything. And they’re doing what they want to do.

And my number two priority is: I want to try to do the best I can with my employees. And my number three thing is: money. Luckily, because I own the real estate, I don’t have to depend on this to be my retirement egg. But like I said, it’s far trickier than I used to think about, and I wasn’t thinking about it that much. Why would somebody? But Succession certainly helped that along, because watching that was just painful. I just realized, “Yeah, I need to work harder on this.” And I am.

Loren Feldman:
Do you have a guess as to what your ultimate plan might be—in terms of the contingency plan, if your kids don’t take over?

Jay Goltz:
At the moment, my guess is, if I sold it to a third party, they would screw it up. I’m truly pretty confident of that. Then, I’ve got a weird business. I’ve got four different, five different businesses. I’ve got two different art businesses, but I think they would screw it up. Two, I think my employees would pay the price for it. So at the moment, my best options, I believe, are either my kids oversee it to some degree and stick with it. Or I figure out some kind of WE-SOP
and work it out.

Loren Feldman:
A WE-SOP where you sell it to a key, or a couple of key employees?

Jay Goltz:
But that’s kind of a problem also. If I’m working in 15 years, my key employees are gonna be in their 60s. So that’s not going to work either. It would actually have to be with other people who have come in since, so it depends when that event happens. It could be in a month. It could be in 15 years. So that’s why I say, I can’t tell you that I’m gonna have the perfect plan, but I certainly can do something to at least have some options.

Loren Feldman:
Most of the advice that I do hear given to business owners is, “Here’s how you exit. Here’s how you sell the business. Here’s how you get out of it.” You don’t hear a lot of discussion about, “Here’s how you continue to run it as long, as you are enjoying getting something out of running it.”

Jay Goltz:
Well, that’s easy. No one’s making money on that one. No one’s making money convincing you to keep running your business. “Oh, let me do a valuation for you. And let me do some training for you.” It’s a whole industry, and I can’t blame them. That’s fine. But there’s no incentive for anybody promoting, “Hey, why don’t you just keep running your business and don’t worry about it?” No one’s gonna make any money on that.

Loren Feldman:
That’s related to the issue: Lots of people, I know, have said to you, “You need to hire a number two.” And it’s a lot trickier to hire a number two, when you’re planning on running the business as long as you can.

Jay Goltz:
Absolutely. I mean, to go hire somebody: “Oh, Jay, when are you gonna retire?” “Yeah, maybe 15 years from now. Maybe next month. I just don’t know.” At this stage, I don’t know what the person would be doing. Sit at my desk and watch what I do? I mean, go on the podcast? “Loren’s calling. Here, will you do the podcast today? Loren, I’ve got somebody to take my place today.”

That’s why I say: Anyone who goes, “Oh, you should have a succession plan.” Okay, you can try to have a succession plan. I’m all for that. I just don’t know that it can be ironclad, if you’re in my mindset, which is, I want to work as long as I can. And you’re right, you don’t hear about it anywhere. I haven’t.

Loren Feldman:
That was Logan Roy’s plan on Succession.

Jay Goltz:
That’s exactly what his plan was. Yeah. And his age in the show, he was 80. I mean, Rupert Murdoch, who the show was about, he’s 92. He’s going to work every day. I mean, so you know, I don’t know, I’m certainly not… For those of you old enough to remember L.A. Law, I’ll never forget this. What was that, 30 years ago maybe?

Loren Feldman:
At least.

Jay Goltz:
They’ve got the father and the son in a lawsuit. The son is 50-something. The father’s 80-something. And they’re suing each other for control. And finally, the lawyer who’s friends with both of them says to the guy, he says, “Benny”—whatever his name was—”why are you suing? Why are you in this lawsuit?” And the old man just wistfully looks away, and he says, “I don’t want to be the old man just sitting in the corner.” And the son gets very emotional: “Oh, Dad!” And they hugged each other and it solved the whole problem.

But I don’t want to hang on too long either. I mean, if I’m not providing any value, and I’ve just turned into the cranky old man—I set you up for that one. You can say, “Jay, you’re already there.” There you go. I don’t want to just be the cranky old man who’s picking up nails. Or there might come a time where you’re no longer serving a purpose. I’m not sure I want to work until the day I die. I probably don’t. But there’s clearly a place in between.

And so, one of the options would be: my kids lose interest, don’t want to do it. I bring somebody else in. Yeah, maybe. That’s why I say there are lots of options. I just want to be as prepared as I can be. And I know I’m not alone in this, as much as you say it’s unusual. Okay, maybe it’s not 50 percent. But I’ll bet you it’s 20 percent or 30 percent of people who would like to work into their 80s, I think. I know some of them.

Loren Feldman:
I think most of the business owners that I’ve spoken with do imagine an exit at some point—and then looking for something else to do.

Jay Goltz:
Maybe. No, I’ll tell you what. A lot of people are listening. Send Loren an email. Let’s do an informal thing. Let’s see if we can get 100 responses. Are you planning on retiring? Or do you want to work as long as you can and be productive?

Loren Feldman:
That would be Loren@21hats.com. I’d love to hear from you. I’d love to get those 100 responses. My thanks to Jay Goltz—and to our sponsors, the Great Game of Business, which helps businesses use an open book management system to build healthier companies. You can learn more at Greatgame.com. And please do send me that email: Loren@21hats.com.