Latest podcast episodes
Episode 265: It’s Not Too Early to Be Thinking About 2026
It’s Not Too Early to Be Thinking About 2026
TIME TO LISTEN: 44:30

This week, David C. Barnett and Jennifer Kerhin say they’re already making plans for next year: adjusting pricing, conducting employee reviews, and setting budgets. In the past, Jennifer has chosen to restrain growth to give her employees and her processes a chance to catch up. But this coming year? She says she’s ready to “unleash the hounds.” And for the first time, she’s planning to budget for profit first and then force her expenses to fit her margins. Unlike Jennifer, who conducts employee reviews throughout the year, David saves his evaluations for the end of the year. As he looks forward, he’s trying to figure out what the economy means for his business. He’s seeing more companies in distress, but also more opportunities to help people with severance packages who decide to buy businesses. Plus: David and Jennifer share how they’ve each been experimenting with ChatGPT of late.

You’re Shutting Down a Profitable Business?
TIME TO LISTEN: 51:34

This week, Mel Gravely brings closure to a story he’s been sharing in pieces over the past year. You may recall that he bought a facilities maintenance company a couple years ago that he was convinced he could scale—only to discover that it was hemorrhaging money. Mel dug in, diagnosed the problem, fixed it, bought out his partners, turned the company profitable—and then decided to shut it down. Why close a business that’s making money? Mel explains the surprising answer, along with three lessons he says he learned. He also joins Jay Goltz in a candid discussion of the painful flipside of hiring: When, and how, does it make sense to lay off employees? As Jay points out, it’s far easier to find advice about adding people than about letting them go, even though it’s a calculation many owners are facing today. Plus: A would-be entrepreneur preparing to launch a business with two friends admits he’s feeling scared. He wants to know whether that fear ever goes away. Mel and Jay think he’s asking the wrong question.

The Product Is Great. Is It a Business?
TIME TO LISTEN: 53:22

This week, we bring you another 21 Hats Brainstorm. Elan Daniel, who started a small-batch hummus business inspired by a memorable experience in Israel, is trying to figure out his best path to long-term viability. So far, he’s been selling at farmers markets and direct to consumers, making all of the hummus and all of the deliveries himself. Since February, his sales have been growing between 5 and 10 percent a week, but his growth is constrained by his refusal to use preservatives, which adds flavor but limits the product’s shelf life. So how should he proceed: Should he sell to speciality markets and restaurants? Should he try to sell to Whole Foods? Should he open his own hummus restaurant, or hum-oo-sia? Should he try to introduce his hummus to the uninitiated or should he focus on connoisseurs? To help Elan think through his options, we convened a panel of 21 Hats Brainstormers and recorded this podcast episode. It’s brought to you by New Bridge Studios, which helps companies, creators, and causes connect their story to the bottom line. And by the way, if you have a challenge you’d like to put before a panel of business owners in our next Brainstorm, shoot me an email: loren@21hats.com.

Would a True Capitalist Consider a Worker Co-op?
TIME TO LISTEN: 45:17

A few months ago, John Abrams—author of From Founder to Future—joined us to talk about succession strategies and the different ways business owners can share ownership with employees. For his own business, John chose one of the more radical options: he turned his construction firm into a worker cooperative. Perhaps surprisingly, the more he described the co-op model, the more intrigued Jay Goltz became—although, predictably, Jay did retain a degree of skepticism. So we asked John to come back on the podcast to help Jay dig a little deeper: Are co-ops really all about democracy? Does someone on the loading dock get the same vote as the CEO? How do profits get split in the co-op model? How do losses get absorbed? How are loans secured without burdening frontline workers with personal guarantees? And perhaps most important: What can go wrong? In the end, I think surprising even himself, Jay failed to identify any real dealbreakers.

In Four Years, This Will Be Your Business to Run
TIME TO LISTEN: 52:25

This week, Jaci Russo and Sarah Segal wrestle with a question that haunts many entrepreneurs: How do you bring your kids into the business—whether for a summer or for good—without messing up the business (or the kids)? For years, Jaci and her husband Michael quietly hoped their son Jackson might one day take over their marketing agency. Their unusual strategy? Never mention it to him—at least not until he’d demonstrated interest and not until he’d proven himself somewhere else. The approach seems to have worked: Jackson has joined BrandRusso, and Jaci has told him he’ll take over in four years. Which prompted Sarah to ask Jaci an obvious question, “What happens if he takes over, and he does a bad job?” As it happens, Jaci and Michael have thought about that, too. Plus: Jaci and Sarah discuss the merits of the new tech trend, especially hot in San Francisco, where more and more people are wearing AI-powered devices that can stealthily transcribe every conversation they have.

Never miss a 21 Hats Podcast episode
Best of: Seth Goldman Brews Another Success
TIME TO LISTEN: 36:15

It was around Memorial Day in 2022 when Coca Cola stunned the beverage world by announcing it was shutting down production of Honest Tea. No one was more surprised than Seth Goldman, who had co-founded the brand and sold it to Coke. But within two weeks, he’d decided to do it all again, and by that Labor Day, bottles of his new venture, Just Ice Tea, were already landing on store shelves. And now, three years later, Just Ice Tea has exploded from $1 million in annual revenue to nearly $24 million to rank 88th on the latest Inc. 5000—more than two decades after Honest Tea first appeared on the list. Which makes this the perfect moment to revisit the conversation I recorded with Seth right before Just Ice Tea launched. In it, he shares how he processed Coke’s decision, why he sold to Coke in the first place, what compelled him to get back into the business, and what he learned working inside the world’s largest beverage company. And yes, I asked whether he could imagine selling this brand to Coke, too.

Best of: A Punk Rocker’s Guide to Building a Business
TIME TO LISTEN: 56:34

In a few weeks, I’ll be in Portland, Oregon, for Shawn Busse’s always terrific Catalyst event. That trip has had me thinking about the city’s keep-it-weird ethos, the spirit that’s made Portland a hotbed for creative business building. My upcoming trip has also inspired me to revisit a podcast conversation Shawn and I recorded in early 2024 with Jenelle Etzel, who is founder of Living Room Realty. The boutique real estate agency has more than a hundred brokers and a reputation for doing things differently, but Jenelle didn’t set out to be a business owner. In fact, she majored in weaving (Shawn, for the record, majored in ceramics). She fronted a punk rock band. She lived out of a van. And yet, those experiences—especially learning how to manage people who didn’t technically have to listen to her and how to serve customers who’d been ignored by the mainstream—turned out to be perfect preparation for building a thriving business in a quirky city. It’s a story that says something about Portland, but even more about the unconventional paths that can lead to successful entrepreneurship.

It’s a Bear Market for Citibin
TIME TO LISTEN: 46:33

This week, Liz Picarazzi tells Jay Goltz and William Vanderbloemen that she’s had a couple of big breakthroughs. For Liz, it’s been a challenging few years dealing with the tariffs while also trying to break into a promising new market. Despite the advice of some very smart people who encouraged her to conquer her first market—urban areas plagued by rats—before expanding into additional markets, Liz has invested a lot of time and energy trying to position Citibin to serve towns, parks, and resorts that need trash bins strong enough to withstand bears. For that investment to pay off, however, Liz would have to outsmart her nemesis, an especially ferocious competitor that goes by the name of Seeley. Plus: Jay talks about the plight of small retailers trying to survive while their industry collapses around them. And William tells us how he’s trying to keep up in the AI arms race between employers and employees.

When Your Biggest Hire Ever Is a Bust
TIME TO LISTEN: 44:27

This week, Jaci Russo tells David C. Barnett and Kate Morgan how the hiring of her agency’s first top-level sales person went wrong. About four months ago, when Jaci first told us about this big step, she sounded thrilled. She said her new sales chief was a delight to be around, had hit the ground running, and had already lined up at least one impressive client. Unfortunately, none of that panned out. But Jaci, who is hardly the first business owner to have an important placement go off the rails, offered to walk us through her process to see what lessons we can all learn: Were the interviews flawed? Was the onboarding effort insufficient? Was it the executive recruiting firm she used? Was it the compensation structure? Or was it the remote-work arrangement? Plus: We also discuss the mounting evidence that companies have stopped filling entry-level positions. And should that trend continue, where will owners find the next generation of leaders?

Laura Zander Named Her Exit Price
TIME TO LISTEN: 49:04

This week, Laura Zander tells Mel Gravely and Jennifer Kerhin how she and her husband, Doug, managed to sell their business for precisely the price they wanted. As you may recall, Laura and Doug started Jimmy Beans Wool more than two decades ago as a tiny corner store and turned it into one of the biggest brands in the yarn industry. Years ago, the couple decided they’d be open to selling—but only if the offer was right. With that goal in mind, they made a deliberate effort to get the business sale-ready and to keep it that way. And as Laura ran the company, she started cultivating relationships with anyone she thought might one day be a buyer. In fact, she tells us, she was never shy about saying, “Oh, hey, Bob, it's really nice to meet you. Do you want to buy my business?” Eventually, someone said yes—although getting to a signed contract, Laura says, nearly broke her. Plus: Jennifer thought she had her hands full running her business—and then her own home went up in flames.

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